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To summarize: The tech community has become weak because we have taken a look at ourselves and realized that many among us are brutish, brash, and genera

by pyre 12y ago

To summarize: The tech community has become weak because we have taken a look at ourselves and realized that many among us are brutish, brash, and generally all-around assholes. But since these people are highly skilled, we should feel that the fact that they are assholes should be swept under the rug and we should "just deal with it." I get that these things exist and that we have to deal with them (change doesn't happen over night), but that doesn't make then "right" or "ok" or "acceptable." Is it wrong to want to change things? Does that make one weak because they don't like the current situation and want to change it rather than "growing a tough skin" and accepting the status quo?

tomp 12y ago
> Is it wrong to want to change things? No. It's not wrong to not want to change them either. I like Linus. He delivers. Many people talk nice, but it's all bullshit.
- pyre 12y ago
  > Many people talk nice, but it's all bullshit. Are you stating that you believe that there is a direct 1:1 correlation between people talking in a civil manner and people being "all bullshit"? Are you also stating that calling someone names when telling them they are wrong somehow adds credibility to opinion of the name-caller? What about political attack ads that spend all of their time smearing the person rather than their policies?
  - tomp 12y ago
    Neither.
    - pyre 12y ago
      Could you expand on the "all bullshit" part then because it comes across as saying that there isn't any point to being civil with people.
      - tomp 12y ago
        No. You seem to deliberately want to misunderstand me. Many != all.
        piyush_soni 12y ago
        So, basically you might be talking bullshit here. There is NO correlation between being a verbal assh*le and being efficient. People can 'deliver' without insulting others. Linus is a high headed rude man, and there's no need for that. You can be straightforward and succinct without being insulting.
        pyre 12y ago
        It wasn't deliberate. I wasn't grokking what you were saying. I was reading: Many people talk nice, but [niceties are] all bullshit. Instead of: Many people talk nice, but [their talk is] all bullshit. The ambiguity of that 'it' is really what this stemmed from.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
I don't agree with your summary. Physical weakness in my comparison is analogous to lack of technical skill or incorrectness in tech. It's orthogonal to being thick or thin skinned - one can be an uber powerlifter with a total > 1000lb who gets offended and whines when a coach says "your abs aren't strong enough, work them harder". I also don't believe it's wrong to want anything. I merely believe that all the potential changes I've seen suggested (beyond perhaps "everyone magically becomes nice") are probably more harmful than the current situation.
- pyre 12y ago
  I can understand that. On the same token, I see a lot of people that seem to celebrate "bluntness" as if it is 'proof' of something (e.g. skill, 'lack of bullshit', etc). I don't think that this is right, or an opinion that should be encouraged.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    Bluntness is exactly that - a costly signal of competence. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2012/12/more-signaling.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2012/12/more-signaling.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/excess_signalin.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/excess_signalin.html I wish I could find his article on incompetence as a costly signal of criminal commitment.
    - pyre 12y ago
      There are plenty of people that are blunt (or assholes) who are not skilled at anything (or who have skills that are no longer in demand). There are plenty of people who are 'skilled' and 'blunt,' but their skillfulness is only in navigating corporate politics, and taking credit for the work of others...
Kalium 12y ago
The unfortunate realization that many of us have come to is that there really is a choice between rejecting the assholes and getting things done. An open, warm, inviting, inclusive, and friendly community that cannot author useful code is of immense social value but very little technical value. Before setting out to change things, I advise figuring out what the desired end-state looks like. And what means of getting there are acceptable.

by pyre 12y ago

tomp 12y ago

> Is it wrong to want to change things? No. It's not wrong to not want to change them either. I like Linus. He delivers. Many people talk nice, but it's all bullshit.

pyre 12y ago
> Many people talk nice, but it's all bullshit. Are you stating that you believe that there is a direct 1:1 correlation between people talking in a civil manner and people being "all bullshit"? Are you also stating that calling someone names when telling them they are wrong somehow adds credibility to opinion of the name-caller? What about political attack ads that spend all of their time smearing the person rather than their policies?
- tomp 12y ago
  Neither.
  - pyre 12y ago
    Could you expand on the "all bullshit" part then because it comes across as saying that there isn't any point to being civil with people.
    - tomp 12y ago
      No. You seem to deliberately want to misunderstand me. Many != all.
      - piyush_soni 12y ago
        So, basically you might be talking bullshit here. There is NO correlation between being a verbal assh*le and being efficient. People can 'deliver' without insulting others. Linus is a high headed rude man, and there's no need for that. You can be straightforward and succinct without being insulting.
      - pyre 12y ago
        It wasn't deliberate. I wasn't grokking what you were saying. I was reading: Many people talk nice, but [niceties are] all bullshit. Instead of: Many people talk nice, but [their talk is] all bullshit. The ambiguity of that 'it' is really what this stemmed from.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

I don't agree with your summary. Physical weakness in my comparison is analogous to lack of technical skill or incorrectness in tech. It's orthogonal to being thick or thin skinned - one can be an uber powerlifter with a total > 1000lb who gets offended and whines when a coach says "your abs aren't strong enough, work them harder". I also don't believe it's wrong to want anything. I merely believe that all the potential changes I've seen suggested (beyond perhaps "everyone magically becomes nice") are probably more harmful than the current situation.

pyre 12y ago
I can understand that. On the same token, I see a lot of people that seem to celebrate "bluntness" as if it is 'proof' of something (e.g. skill, 'lack of bullshit', etc). I don't think that this is right, or an opinion that should be encouraged.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Bluntness is exactly that - a costly signal of competence. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2012/12/more-signaling.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2012/12/more-signaling.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/excess_signalin.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/excess_signalin.html I wish I could find his article on incompetence as a costly signal of criminal commitment.
  - pyre 12y ago
    There are plenty of people that are blunt (or assholes) who are not skilled at anything (or who have skills that are no longer in demand). There are plenty of people who are 'skilled' and 'blunt,' but their skillfulness is only in navigating corporate politics, and taking credit for the work of others...

Kalium 12y ago

The unfortunate realization that many of us have come to is that there really is a choice between rejecting the assholes and getting things done. An open, warm, inviting, inclusive, and friendly community that cannot author useful code is of immense social value but very little technical value. Before setting out to change things, I advise figuring out what the desired end-state looks like. And what means of getting there are acceptable.