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Open source is not awful. It's perhaps the most important thing to happen to computing, ever. Multi-billion dollar companies have formed largely around open s

by Mikeb85 12y ago

Open source is not awful. It's perhaps the most important thing to happen to computing, ever. Multi-billion dollar companies have formed largely around open source. It enables millions of people to do business. Learning how to code is easier than ever. Saying open source is awful because you've encountered assholes is like saying free market economies are awful because some vendor overcharged you one time, or saying cars are awful because some guy cut you off yesterday, or saying free speech is awful because some guy insulted you in public the other day... Open source is merely the idea that sharing code is good. Well, a little more than that, but that's the basic gist. I've personally had nothing but great encounters with FOSS. The few times I've found a bug I sent a bug report, the maintainer was super friendly (maybe because I wasn't a whiny douche-bag complaining about something that I got for free), and fixed it in an absurdly short amount of time (less than a day). Even if it wasn't fixed for a month I'd have been more than happy. Anyhow, the open source community is much like the world at large. Many very nice, friendly people, and a few assholes. Same thing if you step outside. It's best to think of FOSS not as some community that replaces your interactions, but rather as a sharing philosophy in the same way free markets are an economic philosophy.

nathanb 12y ago
Surely you can understand the intent of his message and of the phrase which you partially quote. "Some elements of the open source community are awful to contributors" "Open source is an awful place to be if you don't have a thick skin" "The behavior I have observed as a prolific contributor to open source is awful" All of these statements, I believe, accurately summarize his experience. All of these statements can be summarized "Open source is awful in many ways" for purposes of titling an article. He's not trying to say that the concept of open source is awful. You don't have to jump in and defend that cause.
- Zikes 12y ago
  It might be more accurate to say "the state of the open source community is awful", but for some folks that are deeply involved in that community that might simply be synonymous with open source itself. In either case, I think the author made it fairly clear that he was referring to the community and not the concept.
Havvy 12y ago
Your response is completely off the mark because in many ways "open source" is as much a community as it is a philosophy. Programming is as much a social activity as it is a technical one. You can release open source works, but if you don't use any social platform to distribute it, who's going to find and use it?
- Mikeb85 12y ago
  > Your response is completely off the mark because in many ways "open source" is as much a community as it is a philosophy. Open source is as much a community as the park outside I run in. Other people show up there, some say hi, I meet my friends there sometimes, but the park is not a community.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
inclemnet 12y ago
> Open source is not awful. He specifically said 'in many ways', then elaborated on some of these ways. You're doing nothing more than fighting a strawman. > Open source is merely the idea that sharing code is good This is just an argument from being pedantic - he's obviously talking about the open source community at large (and specifically, some sub-communties), and I can't honestly believe you don't know that. > I've personally had nothing but great encounters with FOSS. Another classic false argument that comes up all the time - do you think your good experiences cancel out his bad ones, or the other bad ones discussed elsewhere in this thread? > It's best to think of FOSS not as some community that replaces your interactions More weird phrasing that seems a bit of a strawman. Who said that the open source community 'replaces' one's interactions? Can a community not have bad characteristics simply because it's not the only community you're involved in? This really makes no sense. > but rather as a sharing philosophy Again, this is an argument from nothing more than being pedantic. It's incredibly obvious that the original post isn't referring at all to the general philosophies of open source, but to the actual communities he participates in, in terms that are not remotely unusual. Even if you're adamant that open source as a term must only refer to the philosophy and none of the practical details, you've done nothing to affect the original argument, because it's still about the communities that exist around it in practice. Overall, I think your post is a bit of a mess of bad arguments and classic fallacies.
- tankenmate 12y ago
  And Lennart's post is bit of a mess of over generalisation. Both arguments have qualitative merit, but also large quantitative holes. There are many open source communities (and there are many altogether; good and bad) that don't have any of this sort of behaviour. It would seem that the Linux kernel / systems arena would have more than its fair share.
- Mikeb85 12y ago
  > He specifically said 'in many ways', then elaborated on some of these ways. But none of those ways have anything to do with open source. You need to look no further than #gamergate to see that people act like assholes on the internet. > This is just an argument from being pedantic - he's obviously talking about the open source community at large (and specifically, some sub-communties), and I can't honestly believe you don't know that. I know that, but equating a concept with people is like equating the corner block outside with the drug dealer that sells there. "Street corners are awful!" > t's incredibly obvious that the original post isn't referring at all to the general philosophies of open source, but to the actual communities he participates in, in terms that are not remotely unusual. So instead of saying those communities suck, he says open source can be awful in some ways... Communities can suck in any industry/hobby/interest/etc...
pachydermic 12y ago
>I've personally had nothing but great encounters with FOSS. Same here. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem, though. I mean, I'm pretty much a nobody. I haven't contributed to the kernel or created a perl module or created systemd so of course I haven't had any issues. I'm sure Poettering isn't making this stuff up. People are so pissed at him for systemd and it makes no sense. And he's right to call out Linus for saying those things. Whether you think the people deserve this kind of abuse or not it's just toxic for the community at large and there isn't any reason to say stuff like that (I'm talking death threats or the most hurtful insults you can think of). If someone drops the ball don't take their work and ask them to leave - if they don't, you should be able to ignore them. >Saying open source is awful because you've encountered assholes is like saying free market economies are awful because some vendor overcharged you one time, or saying cars are awful because some guy cut you off yesterday, or saying free speech is awful because some guy insulted you in public the other day... What he's actually talking about is a pattern of bad behavior. Of course there are going to be random assholes on the internet - that's not what he's talking about. He's talking about all of the abuse he gets from the actual community on a regular basis. Systemic abuse and vitriol. I love open source. I owe my career to Linux and my passion about it. But that doesn't mean we can't make it better. And this internet bullying stuff is a real problem - it's very well documented. Ignoring the problem is the worst thing you can do short of contributing to it. If we're going to have a real community then we have to make sure people feel safe and welcome.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Unfortunately Linux IS the largest piece of Open Source on the planet, dwarfing the other stuff. So its fair to diss OS when Linux has issues.
  - ultramancool 12y ago
    I don't think so - it may be large by usage and codebase, but it's not where most people have experiences with open source development.
krober 12y ago
He's not saying open source is categorically awful, but that there are awful things about it. Pointing out these deficiencies is a way to foster communication to fix shortcomings that may exist in the community. You're right, FOSS has allowed a great many things to happen, but that doesn't mean FOSS and its methods are perfect. Continually revisiting and refining processes should be at the forefront of FOSS.
- Mikeb85 12y ago
  People can be awful. FOSS is produced by people. When people get together, they argue. Maybe he should say people who interact online can be awful.

by Mikeb85 12y ago

nathanb 12y ago

Surely you can understand the intent of his message and of the phrase which you partially quote. "Some elements of the open source community are awful to contributors" "Open source is an awful place to be if you don't have a thick skin" "The behavior I have observed as a prolific contributor to open source is awful" All of these statements, I believe, accurately summarize his experience. All of these statements can be summarized "Open source is awful in many ways" for purposes of titling an article. He's not trying to say that the concept of open source is awful. You don't have to jump in and defend that cause.

Zikes 12y ago
It might be more accurate to say "the state of the open source community is awful", but for some folks that are deeply involved in that community that might simply be synonymous with open source itself. In either case, I think the author made it fairly clear that he was referring to the community and not the concept.

Havvy 12y ago

Your response is completely off the mark because in many ways "open source" is as much a community as it is a philosophy. Programming is as much a social activity as it is a technical one. You can release open source works, but if you don't use any social platform to distribute it, who's going to find and use it?

Mikeb85 12y ago
> Your response is completely off the mark because in many ways "open source" is as much a community as it is a philosophy. Open source is as much a community as the park outside I run in. Other people show up there, some say hi, I meet my friends there sometimes, but the park is not a community.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

inclemnet 12y ago

> Open source is not awful. He specifically said 'in many ways', then elaborated on some of these ways. You're doing nothing more than fighting a strawman. > Open source is merely the idea that sharing code is good This is just an argument from being pedantic - he's obviously talking about the open source community at large (and specifically, some sub-communties), and I can't honestly believe you don't know that. > I've personally had nothing but great encounters with FOSS. Another classic false argument that comes up all the time - do you think your good experiences cancel out his bad ones, or the other bad ones discussed elsewhere in this thread? > It's best to think of FOSS not as some community that replaces your interactions More weird phrasing that seems a bit of a strawman. Who said that the open source community 'replaces' one's interactions? Can a community not have bad characteristics simply because it's not the only community you're involved in? This really makes no sense. > but rather as a sharing philosophy Again, this is an argument from nothing more than being pedantic. It's incredibly obvious that the original post isn't referring at all to the general philosophies of open source, but to the actual communities he participates in, in terms that are not remotely unusual. Even if you're adamant that open source as a term must only refer to the philosophy and none of the practical details, you've done nothing to affect the original argument, because it's still about the communities that exist around it in practice. Overall, I think your post is a bit of a mess of bad arguments and classic fallacies.

tankenmate 12y ago
And Lennart's post is bit of a mess of over generalisation. Both arguments have qualitative merit, but also large quantitative holes. There are many open source communities (and there are many altogether; good and bad) that don't have any of this sort of behaviour. It would seem that the Linux kernel / systems arena would have more than its fair share.
Mikeb85 12y ago
> He specifically said 'in many ways', then elaborated on some of these ways. But none of those ways have anything to do with open source. You need to look no further than #gamergate to see that people act like assholes on the internet. > This is just an argument from being pedantic - he's obviously talking about the open source community at large (and specifically, some sub-communties), and I can't honestly believe you don't know that. I know that, but equating a concept with people is like equating the corner block outside with the drug dealer that sells there. "Street corners are awful!" > t's incredibly obvious that the original post isn't referring at all to the general philosophies of open source, but to the actual communities he participates in, in terms that are not remotely unusual. So instead of saying those communities suck, he says open source can be awful in some ways... Communities can suck in any industry/hobby/interest/etc...

pachydermic 12y ago

>I've personally had nothing but great encounters with FOSS. Same here. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem, though. I mean, I'm pretty much a nobody. I haven't contributed to the kernel or created a perl module or created systemd so of course I haven't had any issues. I'm sure Poettering isn't making this stuff up. People are so pissed at him for systemd and it makes no sense. And he's right to call out Linus for saying those things. Whether you think the people deserve this kind of abuse or not it's just toxic for the community at large and there isn't any reason to say stuff like that (I'm talking death threats or the most hurtful insults you can think of). If someone drops the ball don't take their work and ask them to leave - if they don't, you should be able to ignore them. >Saying open source is awful because you've encountered assholes is like saying free market economies are awful because some vendor overcharged you one time, or saying cars are awful because some guy cut you off yesterday, or saying free speech is awful because some guy insulted you in public the other day... What he's actually talking about is a pattern of bad behavior. Of course there are going to be random assholes on the internet - that's not what he's talking about. He's talking about all of the abuse he gets from the actual community on a regular basis. Systemic abuse and vitriol. I love open source. I owe my career to Linux and my passion about it. But that doesn't mean we can't make it better. And this internet bullying stuff is a real problem - it's very well documented. Ignoring the problem is the worst thing you can do short of contributing to it. If we're going to have a real community then we have to make sure people feel safe and welcome.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Unfortunately Linux IS the largest piece of Open Source on the planet, dwarfing the other stuff. So its fair to diss OS when Linux has issues.
- ultramancool 12y ago
  I don't think so - it may be large by usage and codebase, but it's not where most people have experiences with open source development.

krober 12y ago

He's not saying open source is categorically awful, but that there are awful things about it. Pointing out these deficiencies is a way to foster communication to fix shortcomings that may exist in the community. You're right, FOSS has allowed a great many things to happen, but that doesn't mean FOSS and its methods are perfect. Continually revisiting and refining processes should be at the forefront of FOSS.

Mikeb85 12y ago
People can be awful. FOSS is produced by people. When people get together, they argue. Maybe he should say people who interact online can be awful.