6 ms·

> however, they're not uncommon in any large community when dealing with highly controversial topics Come on. We're talking about init systems here, not the Pa

> however, they're not uncommon in any large community when dealing with highly controversial topics Come on. We're talking about init systems here, not the Palestine/Israel conflict. It should be possible to have a level-headed discussion without insults and death threats. Saying "Poettering is a prominent, controversial person, therefore it's OK" isn't right.

xorcist 12y ago
> We're talking about init systems here I think the background for this has more to do with Avahi and PulseAudio than systemd.
- digi_owl 12y ago
  Also, at this time systemd comes with daemons or utilities for logging, network time, DNS, DHCP, network management, and is poised to act as the intermediary between dbus and kdbus, as well as provide user space virtual terminals. I am likely forgetting something here, but systemd is way more than a "mere" init replacement at this time.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
Folks from those communities have tied up this debate to their identities. http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html
seba_dos1 12y ago
There are always extremes like that, even when dealing with the most innocent topics you could imagine. People can even react similarly with death threats over a change in cartoon TV show that they didn't like. In any sufficiently large community you will find some small percentage of such people, it's nothing exclusive to init systems or even tech as a whole. And it's absolutely not "Poettering is a prominent, controversial person, therefore it's OK"! It's never OK. It's rather "Poettering is a prominent, controversial person, so he should be at least prepared for that and not act like he's surprised".
- mercurial 12y ago
  > It's rather "Poettering is a prominent, controversial person, so he should be at least prepared for that and not act like he's surprised". I don't know. I wouldn't expect being harassed due to software I wrote.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
chronid 12y ago
Small correction: we are not talking about init systems. We are talking about the change from a "distributed" userspace to a "centralized" one. It's an highly political debate while also being technical. Tempers are gonna flare.
- Argorak 12y ago
  Go to your local town hall and threaten to kill the mayor because you don't like his opinions/work. Try to explain all your neighbors that that was okay, because "Tempers are gonna flare". This is, by the way, an offense you can end in jail for, for good reasons.
  - ginko 12y ago
    Only that the open source community is a lot larger than your local town, so it's natural that you will get more extreme cases in the fringes. I'm quite sure the mayor of New York gets death threats on a regular basis.
    - Argorak 12y ago
      That might be the case in the US, but not everywhere.
      - Crito 12y ago
        You think people like Boris Johnson don't receive the occasional death threat? Laughable.
  - vacri 12y ago
    People talk about killing or maiming politicians all the time and don't end up in jail. It's only when the threats are credible that there's a problem (In Poettering's case, having a bitcoin fund for a hitman certainly constitutes this).
  - monochr 12y ago
    >Go to your local town hall and threaten to kill the mayor because you don't like his opinions/work. Have you ever lived in a small town? This is what we call Tuesday evening at the local bar. Until they start buying bullets people threatening to kill you are to murder as people telling threatening to fuck you are to rape.
VLM 12y ago
"We're talking about init systems here, not the Palestine/Israel conflict." To provide some background, that's actually a pretty good analogy, not to trivialize the middle east but to point out that forcing the adoption of one specific piece of software using an embrace extend extinguish business model is a traditional Microsoft tactic, and a lot of people in the linux community still see MS as their greatest enemy, fight to the death, etc. The style of how systemd is being shoved down our unwilling throats is well optimized to generate the largest possible community firestorm at every step. Why someone would intentionally choose that rollout strategy, knowing the likely results, is a mystery. That social decision probably doesn't result in him getting added to many Christmas card lists (understatement).

xorcist 12y ago

> We're talking about init systems here I think the background for this has more to do with Avahi and PulseAudio than systemd.

digi_owl 12y ago
Also, at this time systemd comes with daemons or utilities for logging, network time, DNS, DHCP, network management, and is poised to act as the intermediary between dbus and kdbus, as well as provide user space virtual terminals. I am likely forgetting something here, but systemd is way more than a "mere" init replacement at this time.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

Folks from those communities have tied up this debate to their identities. http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

seba_dos1 12y ago

There are always extremes like that, even when dealing with the most innocent topics you could imagine. People can even react similarly with death threats over a change in cartoon TV show that they didn't like. In any sufficiently large community you will find some small percentage of such people, it's nothing exclusive to init systems or even tech as a whole. And it's absolutely not "Poettering is a prominent, controversial person, therefore it's OK"! It's never OK. It's rather "Poettering is a prominent, controversial person, so he should be at least prepared for that and not act like he's surprised".

mercurial 12y ago
> It's rather "Poettering is a prominent, controversial person, so he should be at least prepared for that and not act like he's surprised". I don't know. I wouldn't expect being harassed due to software I wrote.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

chronid 12y ago

Small correction: we are not talking about init systems. We are talking about the change from a "distributed" userspace to a "centralized" one. It's an highly political debate while also being technical. Tempers are gonna flare.

Argorak 12y ago
Go to your local town hall and threaten to kill the mayor because you don't like his opinions/work. Try to explain all your neighbors that that was okay, because "Tempers are gonna flare". This is, by the way, an offense you can end in jail for, for good reasons.
- ginko 12y ago
  Only that the open source community is a lot larger than your local town, so it's natural that you will get more extreme cases in the fringes. I'm quite sure the mayor of New York gets death threats on a regular basis.
  - Argorak 12y ago
    That might be the case in the US, but not everywhere.
    - Crito 12y ago
      You think people like Boris Johnson don't receive the occasional death threat? Laughable.
- vacri 12y ago
  People talk about killing or maiming politicians all the time and don't end up in jail. It's only when the threats are credible that there's a problem (In Poettering's case, having a bitcoin fund for a hitman certainly constitutes this).
- monochr 12y ago
  >Go to your local town hall and threaten to kill the mayor because you don't like his opinions/work. Have you ever lived in a small town? This is what we call Tuesday evening at the local bar. Until they start buying bullets people threatening to kill you are to murder as people telling threatening to fuck you are to rape.

VLM 12y ago

"We're talking about init systems here, not the Palestine/Israel conflict." To provide some background, that's actually a pretty good analogy, not to trivialize the middle east but to point out that forcing the adoption of one specific piece of software using an embrace extend extinguish business model is a traditional Microsoft tactic, and a lot of people in the linux community still see MS as their greatest enemy, fight to the death, etc. The style of how systemd is being shoved down our unwilling throats is well optimized to generate the largest possible community firestorm at every step. Why someone would intentionally choose that rollout strategy, knowing the likely results, is a mystery. That social decision probably doesn't result in him getting added to many Christmas card lists (understatement).