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"I think the crux of the issue is that $20 an hour is not enough to live anywhere near SF in those areas. Combined with the split shift, this means that basical

"I think the crux of the issue is that $20 an hour is not enough to live anywhere near SF in those areas. Combined with the split shift, this means that basically 16 hours a day of these people's lives are booked." So don't live there! It's not like there isn't a huge country here. If people go take jobs elsewhere, the price people are willing to pay to get people to take these jobs here will go up. If not there is a glut of people willing to take these jobs at almost any price, in which case, honestly, you can't solve this problem (and it is likely we will, in the not too distant future, soon have too many people for all possible jobs that people are needed for) This idea that people have a magical right to simultaneously live wherever they want, and get paid enough to live comfortably there is somewhat ridiculous and impossible to fulfill. There will always be places that are more expensive due to demand. It's not like this is the first time in history (even of the US!) this has ever happened. What happens is people go instead where they can afford to live. Then either pay goes up to attract people to the high demand area, or it becomes less in demand. If i could not afford to live in the bay area with what the bay area was willing to pay me, i would move somewhere cheaper. There are plenty of jobs in the US that are ready for the taking, pay reasonable rates, and are in places that are affordable. People often just consider themselves too good to take them.

jmckib 12y ago
I see you're getting downvoted, but you are absolutely right. If the wages for job X in location Y are too low to be affordable, people will either relocate or find a new job, causing the wages for job X in location Y to increase. I don't see a good reason to interfere with this process.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  There is a simple reason: human beings are not fungible. The economy should serve people, not the other way around.
  - jmckib 12y ago
    I think you missed the point. I am arguing that a union would benefit bus drivers at the expense of all other people.
  - DannyBee 12y ago
    And your proposed solution is what? let's replace "Bay Area" with something else with limited land: "Hawaii". Imagine Hawaii is the next place everyone wants to live. A billion people want to live there in fact (choose any number that makes you comfortable believing it's not simply a "build more housing units" problem), some who have already been there a long time, some who haven't. This drives the cost of living up. Some people now can't afford to live there. Some of these folks have been there a long time. Some of them have not. What solution is there to this problem other than "somebody doesn't get to live in Hawaii"?
- QuantumChaos 12y ago
  I appreciate you and DannyBee's comments. It is disheartening to me that basic economics is treated here as right wing propaganda. Mainstream economics won against all other theories academically. Yet many otherwise educated people are unaware of fundamentals such as the welfare theorems (or dismiss them out of hands with "muh frictions").
  - jmckib 12y ago
    Thanks! Here's my economic explanation for why people don't understand economics or have intelligent political opinions in general: there's just no incentive to. Understanding economics is hard, and for the individual there's really no penalty for not understanding it. This is why you have otherwise brilliant people who just don't seem to understand basic supply and demand. Not saying this is true in every case, some people just have a different opinion of the tradeoffs involved, e.g. they're willing to accept slower economic growth in exchange for less creative destruction. My hope is that this becomes less and less true as people become more mobile. Imagine if you could just teleport to a political jurisdiction that is more aligned with your opinions. Suddenly, the penalty for not understanding economics could be very high.
    - QuantumChaos 12y ago
      Have to disagree with you there. Educated people tend to be well informed and hold sensible opinions on global warming, vaccination, and education (and often hold silly opinions on nutrition, even though there is a very strong incentive). Economics is unique as something where people disdain the mainstream. One notable difference (you can see it in this thread) is that people assume economists are somehow different from other academics. That academics in general can be trusted, but economists are sellouts. What they miss is that there is no significant difference between Economics as a field, and other fields. They get paid slightly more, but otherwise the journals, professional organizations, tenure committees, etc. are exactly the same. There is literally no point where the capitalist comes along with bags of money for his obedient intellectual servants. The real reason people don't accept the mainstream is that it is very dismal. It says that your revealed preference proves that you value a cup of coffee in every morning over the life of an African (since you could donate that money to life saving charities). It says that inequality can't be fully ironed out because some people are more productive than others. It says that there is no way to shuffle around interest rates, bank accounts, etc. and make everyone better off. It says that there is no easy way to make the world better, because the free market has already maxed out the easy gains. Personally, I think that the best way to encourage people to be more open to the mainstream, is to tell the other side of the store. Economics is also uplifting. It says that when you work for a company, you are creating value, and that that value can and does help people other than yourself (through the tax system). I also believe that tech has very large positive externalities (especially once you understand that taking people's jobs isn't an externality). Finally, it enables people to embrace the positive, self-affirming aspects of Ayn Rand's philosophy, without going to extremes. I do feel guilty that I don't do more for the people who are worst off. But at least I can enjoy my money, and my life, without feeling guilty that I'm driving some artist out of the current trendy area.
teh_klev 12y ago
So basically you're saying that if a family has lived in an area for many years (possibly several generations), and are gradually being priced out of the ability to exist and work, they should just move on somewhere else, breaking long established ties with friends and family? That's pretty harsh and selfish outlook about the lives and welfare of working families who will never see anywhere near the six figure salaries being earned by FB, Google et al engineers.
- jmckib 12y ago
  You're right, something like this could cause friends and family to have to separate. Creative destruction sucks, but I would argue that the benefits to society are worth it. I can't fault you for having a different opinion on the tradeoff though. Possible alternative to unionizing every low-wage job: lobby the city to remove barriers to building additional housing, so fewer people will need to move.
- anon1385 12y ago
  It's a common refrain from right wing commentators. It has always seemed to me a very anti-human position though. When people move they lose the support network of their friends and family and community. That network can be crucial to them in all sorts of ways - helping to find a job if they become unemployed, helping out in times of financial hardship, helping them during periods of illness or depression. In many ways it's just about the worst thing a person can do for their economic future.
  - DannyBee 12y ago
    "It's a common refrain from right wing commentators." FWIW: I'm as left wing as they come. Really. I think you mistake my opinion that "folks should move to where they can afford to live" with a lack of empathy. I actually have very strong empathy for folks in this kind of situation (having had family members in it myself!) I just don't see a viable alternative here that actually works long term. Also "When people move they lose the support network of their friends and family and community." This is complete and utter bullshit in most cases. It's simply rhetoric with no support. Especially in this day and age of easily available instant communication and social media. (For reference: I have had severely depressed people in my family who i have supported through their depression, so i actually have some experience in this area. ) "In many ways it's just about the worst thing a person can do for their economic future." Really? You should probably tell this to all the people who don't end up living near their parents after college ... Seriously though, you do not offer any evidence of this assertion at all, and all available data i've seen points to the opposite. My ex-wife was the first of her many-generation family to leave the area they lived in. First to go to college. Family pushed her very hard to relocate back to the same area after college. But if she had, that would have been the worst thing she could have done for economic future. Instead she moved somewhere with a better job market for her skill set, and saved money. Meanwhile, other folks in her family who stayed behind where they couldn't afford to, and where good-paying jobs are hard to get, are now having serious trouble making ends meet. Family can only help you so much here.
anon1385 12y ago
Your posts on this thread are quite strange. It's almost as if you are in complete ignorance of the most fundamental criticisms of capitalism. I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but it's bizarre that you are wildly thrashing about in confusion over topics that have been well discussed for over a century. The position of the workers here is not new, neither is their argument, but you have never encountered it before? You seem to be implicitly assuming that the corporation will fight for their position, and that there is nothing wrong with that. When workers do the same suddenly you are left in shock and disgust. Why is that? If Facebook wants to hire cheaper bus drivers, then they should just relocate to a cheaper area, right?
- beagle3 12y ago
  > If Facebook wants to hire cheaper bus drivers, then they should just relocate to a cheaper area, right? If they couldn't find them, or were unable to do so by laws (e.g. minimum wage), then - yes, they should. And in fact many companies move as a result of regulations or a talent pool that becomes too expensive. What exactly is your argument? That the drivers are right? (I don't have an opinion) That the fight is legitimate? (Yes, the fight is legitimate, but it is also legitimate for facebook to say "forget it, we'll get someone else to drive our buses". You can only afford to fight if you can afford to lose)
- DannyBee 12y ago
  "The position of the workers here is not new, neither is their argument, but you have never encountered it before?" Of course I have. It hasn't made actual sense for a very long time, however. "You seem to be implicitly assuming that the corporation will fight for their position, and that there is nothing wrong with that. When workers do the same suddenly you are left in shock and disgust. Why is that?" Because the corporation is already competing for talent in the other direction (very much so in fact!), but when it's the workers that need to compete, their answer is to complain that their is competition? "If Facebook wants to hire cheaper bus drivers, then they should just relocate to a cheaper area, right?" Sure, this is a viable alternative to me as well. Companies often do move when it becomes economically infeasible to stay where they are.
- tvhiggins 12y ago
DanBC 12y ago
What about city centre hospitals. They need a bunch of low pay staff. Should those low pay staff all live a two hour commute away?
- teh_klev 12y ago
  In London many nurses and firefighters servicing inner London experience worse problems. Their commutes are up to four hours away causing them to sleep in their cars between shifts. They're basically priced out of the City and it's too expensive to drive home each night. Sure it'd be easier to suggest they get work closer to home but real life doesn't work out that way.

jmckib 12y ago

I see you're getting downvoted, but you are absolutely right. If the wages for job X in location Y are too low to be affordable, people will either relocate or find a new job, causing the wages for job X in location Y to increase. I don't see a good reason to interfere with this process.

TeMPOraL 12y ago
There is a simple reason: human beings are not fungible. The economy should serve people, not the other way around.
- jmckib 12y ago
  I think you missed the point. I am arguing that a union would benefit bus drivers at the expense of all other people.
- DannyBee 12y ago
  And your proposed solution is what? let's replace "Bay Area" with something else with limited land: "Hawaii". Imagine Hawaii is the next place everyone wants to live. A billion people want to live there in fact (choose any number that makes you comfortable believing it's not simply a "build more housing units" problem), some who have already been there a long time, some who haven't. This drives the cost of living up. Some people now can't afford to live there. Some of these folks have been there a long time. Some of them have not. What solution is there to this problem other than "somebody doesn't get to live in Hawaii"?
QuantumChaos 12y ago
I appreciate you and DannyBee's comments. It is disheartening to me that basic economics is treated here as right wing propaganda. Mainstream economics won against all other theories academically. Yet many otherwise educated people are unaware of fundamentals such as the welfare theorems (or dismiss them out of hands with "muh frictions").
- jmckib 12y ago
  Thanks! Here's my economic explanation for why people don't understand economics or have intelligent political opinions in general: there's just no incentive to. Understanding economics is hard, and for the individual there's really no penalty for not understanding it. This is why you have otherwise brilliant people who just don't seem to understand basic supply and demand. Not saying this is true in every case, some people just have a different opinion of the tradeoffs involved, e.g. they're willing to accept slower economic growth in exchange for less creative destruction. My hope is that this becomes less and less true as people become more mobile. Imagine if you could just teleport to a political jurisdiction that is more aligned with your opinions. Suddenly, the penalty for not understanding economics could be very high.
  - QuantumChaos 12y ago
    Have to disagree with you there. Educated people tend to be well informed and hold sensible opinions on global warming, vaccination, and education (and often hold silly opinions on nutrition, even though there is a very strong incentive). Economics is unique as something where people disdain the mainstream. One notable difference (you can see it in this thread) is that people assume economists are somehow different from other academics. That academics in general can be trusted, but economists are sellouts. What they miss is that there is no significant difference between Economics as a field, and other fields. They get paid slightly more, but otherwise the journals, professional organizations, tenure committees, etc. are exactly the same. There is literally no point where the capitalist comes along with bags of money for his obedient intellectual servants. The real reason people don't accept the mainstream is that it is very dismal. It says that your revealed preference proves that you value a cup of coffee in every morning over the life of an African (since you could donate that money to life saving charities). It says that inequality can't be fully ironed out because some people are more productive than others. It says that there is no way to shuffle around interest rates, bank accounts, etc. and make everyone better off. It says that there is no easy way to make the world better, because the free market has already maxed out the easy gains. Personally, I think that the best way to encourage people to be more open to the mainstream, is to tell the other side of the store. Economics is also uplifting. It says that when you work for a company, you are creating value, and that that value can and does help people other than yourself (through the tax system). I also believe that tech has very large positive externalities (especially once you understand that taking people's jobs isn't an externality). Finally, it enables people to embrace the positive, self-affirming aspects of Ayn Rand's philosophy, without going to extremes. I do feel guilty that I don't do more for the people who are worst off. But at least I can enjoy my money, and my life, without feeling guilty that I'm driving some artist out of the current trendy area.

teh_klev 12y ago

So basically you're saying that if a family has lived in an area for many years (possibly several generations), and are gradually being priced out of the ability to exist and work, they should just move on somewhere else, breaking long established ties with friends and family? That's pretty harsh and selfish outlook about the lives and welfare of working families who will never see anywhere near the six figure salaries being earned by FB, Google et al engineers.

jmckib 12y ago
You're right, something like this could cause friends and family to have to separate. Creative destruction sucks, but I would argue that the benefits to society are worth it. I can't fault you for having a different opinion on the tradeoff though. Possible alternative to unionizing every low-wage job: lobby the city to remove barriers to building additional housing, so fewer people will need to move.
anon1385 12y ago
It's a common refrain from right wing commentators. It has always seemed to me a very anti-human position though. When people move they lose the support network of their friends and family and community. That network can be crucial to them in all sorts of ways - helping to find a job if they become unemployed, helping out in times of financial hardship, helping them during periods of illness or depression. In many ways it's just about the worst thing a person can do for their economic future.
- DannyBee 12y ago
  "It's a common refrain from right wing commentators." FWIW: I'm as left wing as they come. Really. I think you mistake my opinion that "folks should move to where they can afford to live" with a lack of empathy. I actually have very strong empathy for folks in this kind of situation (having had family members in it myself!) I just don't see a viable alternative here that actually works long term. Also "When people move they lose the support network of their friends and family and community." This is complete and utter bullshit in most cases. It's simply rhetoric with no support. Especially in this day and age of easily available instant communication and social media. (For reference: I have had severely depressed people in my family who i have supported through their depression, so i actually have some experience in this area. ) "In many ways it's just about the worst thing a person can do for their economic future." Really? You should probably tell this to all the people who don't end up living near their parents after college ... Seriously though, you do not offer any evidence of this assertion at all, and all available data i've seen points to the opposite. My ex-wife was the first of her many-generation family to leave the area they lived in. First to go to college. Family pushed her very hard to relocate back to the same area after college. But if she had, that would have been the worst thing she could have done for economic future. Instead she moved somewhere with a better job market for her skill set, and saved money. Meanwhile, other folks in her family who stayed behind where they couldn't afford to, and where good-paying jobs are hard to get, are now having serious trouble making ends meet. Family can only help you so much here.

anon1385 12y ago

Your posts on this thread are quite strange. It's almost as if you are in complete ignorance of the most fundamental criticisms of capitalism. I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but it's bizarre that you are wildly thrashing about in confusion over topics that have been well discussed for over a century. The position of the workers here is not new, neither is their argument, but you have never encountered it before? You seem to be implicitly assuming that the corporation will fight for their position, and that there is nothing wrong with that. When workers do the same suddenly you are left in shock and disgust. Why is that? If Facebook wants to hire cheaper bus drivers, then they should just relocate to a cheaper area, right?

beagle3 12y ago
> If Facebook wants to hire cheaper bus drivers, then they should just relocate to a cheaper area, right? If they couldn't find them, or were unable to do so by laws (e.g. minimum wage), then - yes, they should. And in fact many companies move as a result of regulations or a talent pool that becomes too expensive. What exactly is your argument? That the drivers are right? (I don't have an opinion) That the fight is legitimate? (Yes, the fight is legitimate, but it is also legitimate for facebook to say "forget it, we'll get someone else to drive our buses". You can only afford to fight if you can afford to lose)
DannyBee 12y ago
"The position of the workers here is not new, neither is their argument, but you have never encountered it before?" Of course I have. It hasn't made actual sense for a very long time, however. "You seem to be implicitly assuming that the corporation will fight for their position, and that there is nothing wrong with that. When workers do the same suddenly you are left in shock and disgust. Why is that?" Because the corporation is already competing for talent in the other direction (very much so in fact!), but when it's the workers that need to compete, their answer is to complain that their is competition? "If Facebook wants to hire cheaper bus drivers, then they should just relocate to a cheaper area, right?" Sure, this is a viable alternative to me as well. Companies often do move when it becomes economically infeasible to stay where they are.
tvhiggins 12y ago

DanBC 12y ago

What about city centre hospitals. They need a bunch of low pay staff. Should those low pay staff all live a two hour commute away?

teh_klev 12y ago
In London many nurses and firefighters servicing inner London experience worse problems. Their commutes are up to four hours away causing them to sleep in their cars between shifts. They're basically priced out of the City and it's too expensive to drive home each night. Sure it'd be easier to suggest they get work closer to home but real life doesn't work out that way.