4 ms·

But why limit it to a safe space for women, why not a safe space for anyone who doesn't want to be insulted? It seems sexist to me to assume men can't be in a

But why limit it to a safe space for women, why not a safe space for anyone who doesn't want to be insulted? It seems sexist to me to assume men can't be in a non abusive community.

HarryHirsch 12y ago
The point is that this is a polemic piece, it's Valerie Aurora after all. The opposite of polemics would be apologetics. Valerie is implying that feminism is equivalent to civility, civility in the Latin sense of being mindful of the rights and responsibilities to human society. That's where she loses me. And what's with this dehumanizing technique of not naming those she disagrees with? You see this often.
- hashbanged 12y ago
  They name names, it becomes a radical feminist attack piece. People would ask, why did she attack so and so? They are so nice and do so many things for the community. What's with begging the question by saying "it's Valerlie Aurora after all"? It doesn't do anything for someone reading your comment who doesn't know what to think of her.
sliverstorm 12y ago
I'm not a gender studies major, but to me it seems safe to say feminism is rampant with sexism. Not necessarily in the hateful way, but in the way that affirmative action is fundamentally racist. So, while I may not always agree, it is never a surprise.
- daeken 12y ago
  "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." - Rebecca West There's nothing sexist about feminism; it's simply wanting equality for women -- that does not mean that women and men are the same (as is often claimed), but that they are treated the same. Comparing feminism to affirmative action is incredibly misleading.
  - ObviousScience 12y ago
    Pretending that the definition you gave is actually what drives all the "feminism" movement isn't being honest: it's certainly true for most people, but there is (and always has been) a not-small branch of feminism that is staunchly sexist.
    - hypatiadotca 12y ago
      Kinda like Hacker News. CHECKMATE.
  - Jach 12y ago
    Rebecca West does not speak for all feminists. She wasn't even alive for the mess of the third wave we're still in. I'm just replying to say your comment on a first reading comes across as naive in the subject of feminism. But it can also be seen as disingenuous, for it's a classic propaganda technique to hide behind a reasonable claim made by a proponent of X_1 to further along some goal of X_2, all while using the undifferentiated label X. (See https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm on 'democracy'.) I also can't ignore that, left unqualified, an uncharitable reader may interpret your claim for men and women to be treated the same as a claim to be treated the same in all contexts, which is obviously a stupid idea, because men and women aren't the same. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to encourage you to be less sloppy if you're going to reply to comments like sliverstorm's with intent to change minds. At best, your reply is just an argument over a definition (http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/), let's all try to do better.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    The core ethos of feminism is that simple, yes. But how do we get there? That's where things like affirmative action routinely work their way into the discussion, and I hope you don't mean to pretend otherwise.
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  Feminism, in general, is biased against men in the same sense that giving a short person a box to stand on at a concert so he can see the stage, and not giving a box to a tall person who can see just fine already, shows bias against tall people.
  - kangaroo5383 12y ago
    This is brilliant. I'm going to have to steal this whenever possible.
  - dingaling 12y ago
    And what if the small-person-on-box now blocks the view of the tall person?
    - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
      For purposes of this overstretched analogy, it's much more common for the short person to be beside the tall person and not blocking their view at all, but the tall person starts screaming that they deserve a box anyway.
  - andrewchambers 12y ago
    That is wrong, that suggests women are inferior to men and need help permanently. In reality the real goal should be making the short person grow to be equal height.
    - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
      That's my point. Don't overthink the analogy. Or, feel free to substitute "give a ladder to a person stuck in a hole, but not to a person on solid ground," if you prefer.
  - tomp 12y ago
    This is a great metaphor - on a concert, it doesn't matter who sees the stage - the important thing is the music, there is really no difference between short and tall people, and noone needs a box. The only reason the small person might need a box is because (s)he feels inferior compared to the large one. This is just like a lot of feminism. Feminists arbitrarily decided that men's lives were better than women's, and wanted to make it possible for women to lead men's lives. Personally, I consider that being at home is better than being at work, but feminists hardly ever fought for the ability of men to be stay-at-home dads.
pessimizer 12y ago
The more we work to make every space safe for women, the less need women will have for a safe space. edit: There are enough exclusively male places for me to be feminist in, if I feel there's some sort of shortage of places to express myself.
hashbanged 12y ago
It's a pretty accepted fact that men interrupt women and women do better when they have women authority managers or teachers. It's why there are women's colleges.

But why limit it to a safe space for women, why not a safe space for anyone who doesn't want to be insulted? It seems sexist to me to assume men can't be in a non abusive community.

HarryHirsch 12y ago

The point is that this is a polemic piece, it's Valerie Aurora after all. The opposite of polemics would be apologetics. Valerie is implying that feminism is equivalent to civility, civility in the Latin sense of being mindful of the rights and responsibilities to human society. That's where she loses me. And what's with this dehumanizing technique of not naming those she disagrees with? You see this often.

hashbanged 12y ago
They name names, it becomes a radical feminist attack piece. People would ask, why did she attack so and so? They are so nice and do so many things for the community. What's with begging the question by saying "it's Valerlie Aurora after all"? It doesn't do anything for someone reading your comment who doesn't know what to think of her.

sliverstorm 12y ago

I'm not a gender studies major, but to me it seems safe to say feminism is rampant with sexism. Not necessarily in the hateful way, but in the way that affirmative action is fundamentally racist. So, while I may not always agree, it is never a surprise.

daeken 12y ago
"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." - Rebecca West There's nothing sexist about feminism; it's simply wanting equality for women -- that does not mean that women and men are the same (as is often claimed), but that they are treated the same. Comparing feminism to affirmative action is incredibly misleading.
- ObviousScience 12y ago
  Pretending that the definition you gave is actually what drives all the "feminism" movement isn't being honest: it's certainly true for most people, but there is (and always has been) a not-small branch of feminism that is staunchly sexist.
  - hypatiadotca 12y ago
    Kinda like Hacker News. CHECKMATE.
- Jach 12y ago
  Rebecca West does not speak for all feminists. She wasn't even alive for the mess of the third wave we're still in. I'm just replying to say your comment on a first reading comes across as naive in the subject of feminism. But it can also be seen as disingenuous, for it's a classic propaganda technique to hide behind a reasonable claim made by a proponent of X_1 to further along some goal of X_2, all while using the undifferentiated label X. (See https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm on 'democracy'.) I also can't ignore that, left unqualified, an uncharitable reader may interpret your claim for men and women to be treated the same as a claim to be treated the same in all contexts, which is obviously a stupid idea, because men and women aren't the same. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to encourage you to be less sloppy if you're going to reply to comments like sliverstorm's with intent to change minds. At best, your reply is just an argument over a definition (http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/), let's all try to do better.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  The core ethos of feminism is that simple, yes. But how do we get there? That's where things like affirmative action routinely work their way into the discussion, and I hope you don't mean to pretend otherwise.
PhasmaFelis 12y ago
Feminism, in general, is biased against men in the same sense that giving a short person a box to stand on at a concert so he can see the stage, and not giving a box to a tall person who can see just fine already, shows bias against tall people.
- kangaroo5383 12y ago
  This is brilliant. I'm going to have to steal this whenever possible.
- dingaling 12y ago
  And what if the small-person-on-box now blocks the view of the tall person?
  - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
    For purposes of this overstretched analogy, it's much more common for the short person to be beside the tall person and not blocking their view at all, but the tall person starts screaming that they deserve a box anyway.
- andrewchambers 12y ago
  That is wrong, that suggests women are inferior to men and need help permanently. In reality the real goal should be making the short person grow to be equal height.
  - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
    That's my point. Don't overthink the analogy. Or, feel free to substitute "give a ladder to a person stuck in a hole, but not to a person on solid ground," if you prefer.
- tomp 12y ago
  This is a great metaphor - on a concert, it doesn't matter who sees the stage - the important thing is the music, there is really no difference between short and tall people, and noone needs a box. The only reason the small person might need a box is because (s)he feels inferior compared to the large one. This is just like a lot of feminism. Feminists arbitrarily decided that men's lives were better than women's, and wanted to make it possible for women to lead men's lives. Personally, I consider that being at home is better than being at work, but feminists hardly ever fought for the ability of men to be stay-at-home dads.

pessimizer 12y ago

The more we work to make every space safe for women, the less need women will have for a safe space. edit: There are enough exclusively male places for me to be feminist in, if I feel there's some sort of shortage of places to express myself.

hashbanged 12y ago

It's a pretty accepted fact that men interrupt women and women do better when they have women authority managers or teachers. It's why there are women's colleges.