4 ms·

I can understand not supporting tape installation (although aren't tapes still used in large, serious, high-power businesses as backup media?), but why remove F

by cbd1984 12y ago

I can understand not supporting tape installation (although aren't tapes still used in large, serious, high-power businesses as backup media?), but why remove FTP? Granted, it's objectively a horrible protocol, but is the FTP client code more likely to be an attack surface than the HTTP client code? If you're after security, isn't it more secure to remove all network installation and force people to use only physical media which they obtained from a secure and trusted source? http://mywiki.wooledge.org/FtpMustDie http://mywiki.wooledge.org/FtpMustDie

danielweber 12y ago
That surprised me, too, because in 2013 I was installing from FTP. But mostly from habit. I'm hoping it's because they are going to be using HTTPS with pinned certs to ensure you are downloading from a proper mirror. But that's hope, not actual knowledge.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  > HTTPS with pinned certs Is there an FTP equivalent of this?
  - kjs3 12y ago
    There's FTP/S (and RFC-4217, and not SFTP), which uses an SSL session negotiated inside of an FTP session. I don't know if there's a client/server combo that supports pinning, but this much at least exists. Frankly, if I was looking to implement this, I'd start with SFTP/SCP. FTP/S is, at best, a rarely implemented kludge.
justin66 12y ago
> I can understand not supporting tape installation (although aren't tapes still used in large, serious, high-power businesses as backup media?) How does removing tape installation as a feature affect businesses who use tape as a backup method?
- cbd1984 12y ago
  My point is that tape isn't dead, that it's still a viable way to store large amounts of data, like a full OS install with lots of ports to go along with it.
  - kjs3 12y ago
    You're not wrong, per se, but be aware that the sweet spot for tape storage has skewed to 100's of TB through PB range. Last time I checked, the smallest tape drive you could buy as new production is 1.6TB and costs more than $1k. So...tape is definitely not dead, it's just not something that makes a lot of sense for installing an OS any more, relative to a US$10 USB stick, $.25 DVD or $50 external 500GB hard drive. And, anecdotally, the number of "hobbyist" tape users for other than bulk backups seems to have dropped from "some" 20 years ago to "LOL you use tape LOL" today. Insert standard disclaimer about it being open source and if someone wanted to resurrect tape install more power to them, etc.

by cbd1984 12y ago

danielweber 12y ago

That surprised me, too, because in 2013 I was installing from FTP. But mostly from habit. I'm hoping it's because they are going to be using HTTPS with pinned certs to ensure you are downloading from a proper mirror. But that's hope, not actual knowledge.

cbd1984 12y ago
> HTTPS with pinned certs Is there an FTP equivalent of this?
- kjs3 12y ago
  There's FTP/S (and RFC-4217, and not SFTP), which uses an SSL session negotiated inside of an FTP session. I don't know if there's a client/server combo that supports pinning, but this much at least exists. Frankly, if I was looking to implement this, I'd start with SFTP/SCP. FTP/S is, at best, a rarely implemented kludge.

justin66 12y ago

> I can understand not supporting tape installation (although aren't tapes still used in large, serious, high-power businesses as backup media?) How does removing tape installation as a feature affect businesses who use tape as a backup method?

cbd1984 12y ago
My point is that tape isn't dead, that it's still a viable way to store large amounts of data, like a full OS install with lots of ports to go along with it.
- kjs3 12y ago
  You're not wrong, per se, but be aware that the sweet spot for tape storage has skewed to 100's of TB through PB range. Last time I checked, the smallest tape drive you could buy as new production is 1.6TB and costs more than $1k. So...tape is definitely not dead, it's just not something that makes a lot of sense for installing an OS any more, relative to a US$10 USB stick, $.25 DVD or $50 external 500GB hard drive. And, anecdotally, the number of "hobbyist" tape users for other than bulk backups seems to have dropped from "some" 20 years ago to "LOL you use tape LOL" today. Insert standard disclaimer about it being open source and if someone wanted to resurrect tape install more power to them, etc.