5 ms·

bitcoin will be on your mind the next time you want to send/receive money oversees, i guarantee you that.

pron 12y ago
I'd be crazy to bet on such a volatile asset even for 30 minutes (BTC value changes often far exceed transfer fees), so every simple transfer turns into a bet, which I'm willing to pay to avoid. Not to mention that Bitcoin isn't liquid in many currencies.
danbruc 12y ago
This is true for 0.02 % of the world's population, at best. (This is more than the estimated number of people owning Bitcoins, like it or not.)
- rglullis 12y ago
  25 years ago, the same could be said of international phone calls. The world is getting smaller and smaller, there will be a point in the future where getting goods/services from someone across the ocean is as common as sending an email.
  - danbruc 12y ago
    And I can already pay for this with my credit card today.
    - rglullis 12y ago
      That is a horrible counter-argument. What about the people on the other side of the transaction who (today) might not even have access to a bank account, let alone an international credit card? Also, tell me how do you hire someone working in a country with strong capital controls (e.g, Argentina). What good is your credit card if a contractor says "sorry, to use PayPal/Visa/Mastercard/Amex there is a 40-50% surcharge"?
      - mikeyouse 12y ago
        These people who don't have bank accounts and credit cards have internet and computers though (and the knowledge to harden these computers against attack)? Is there a problem that Bitcoin solves that isn't better solved by M-Pesa?
        rglullis 12y ago
        M-Pesa depends on the mobile carriers obtaining special licenses to operate as banking agents. AFAIK, very few countries in the developed world allow this. > don't have bank accounts and credit cards have internet and computers though. Yes. Think of "nigerian scammers". Think how easy it is to get prepaid cell phones in most of the world, etc, etc...
        mikeyouse 12y ago
        Most of the 'Nigerian Scammers' use public computers in cafes / lounges. Would you expect people to use public computers for BTC business? How could they possibly secure these computers against Keyloggers and other means of 'hacking'?
        rglullis 12y ago
        Oh, man... Short answer: By not storing wallets in computers at all. Long, technical-focused answer: Paper wallets. Hardware wallets. USB drives that boot into a read-only operating system with your keys and a BTC client. Old cell phones that can be repurposed to run btc client software... you don't need to have a computer of your own to keep a wallet. And I haven't even mentioned hosted services! There is nothing (besides government regulation) stopping shop owners who work with M-Pesa to also offer "BTC vault services": using multi-sig, any BTC deposited in an account needs to be authorized by the vault. Longer, human-focused answer: stop thinking that the problem in underdeveloped countries is lack of access to material things. The problem with underdeveloped countries is the lack of consolidated, stable, sound institutions. The technicalities of how to use BTC (or any cryptocurrency) is not the problem, they can adapt by themselves to a new gadget. What they can't do - by themselves - is to create these institutions that the people in the developed world take for granted. A farmer will have access to Internet (just not so fast/ubiquitous/cheap), the thing they don't have is a bank to give them decent insurance in case their crops go bad, or any one to give them credit so that s/he can finance the purchase of supplies. They will have access to smartphones (not your "premium" iPhone, but that is only 2-3 years away by Moore's Law) and they will have cell phone access. What they don't have is a government that is stable enough to guarantee the money sent directly to him is as good as the money sent through some corrupt bureaucrat, or taxed away, or inflated away. The cool thing about BTC is how it completely disrupts the finance/banking industry. It turns a socio-economic-political problem into a technological one. It allows people who live in poor institutions to completely bypass them. --- So, to summarize: if you are an American whose only concern is to keep your money and the convenience that it is only possible due to the stable institutions that your country provides, by all means stay out of any crypto-currency. But if you'd like to live in a world where the barriers are down, with free flow of people and services and goods, then by all means take a look at BTC - not as way to get rich quickly, but as a way to make the world freer.
  - rmah 12y ago
    25 years ago, billions of people could place international phone calls.
    - rglullis 12y ago
      I know, and that is kind of my point. I am not saying that money remittance is impossible without BTC. I am saying that it makes it so much easier and accessible that it's impossible to ignore. Sending money overseas today is possible, but comparing Paypal/Western Union with BTC is the same as comparing AT&T (the original one) with Skype.
sanswork 12y ago
I send money internationally a couple times a month and have known about bitcoin for a long time and its never even a consideration. Even though I have access to exchanges where the fees are low the time effort in first sending my money to an exchange then buying then sending it to the other side then having them sell on an exchange and then transfer the funds out is so much more painful than the existing "Open wire transfer, receive funds next day" unless your time is worth $0 it costs more too. There are now a few "instant" exchanges but unfortunately all instant methods at them are still marked up a fair bit. Add in the fact that if you don't have access to a good exchange and you're using LBC or an ATM you're probably paying more than wire fees for any non-negligible amount even without considering the time.
Estragon 12y ago
The price difference between BTCAUD and BTCUSD is very close to the cost of transferring money from an Australian bank to a US bank.
notabubble 12y ago
I regularly send money to Indonesia, and found that Ria is simpler and less expensive than BTC. End to end (including the margin on the USD/IDR conversion) the transaction costs for RIA around 2%. BTC for this transaction works out to around 3.5%, and it's harder to use to boot. BTC isn't useless, but your post is typical of BTC proponents. It sounds plausible, but it's actually bullshit.
Nursie 12y ago
True, it will. I'm not sure it will win, I have a pretty good/cheap service I used for this in the past already. But I'll at least look at it I guess.

pron 12y ago

I'd be crazy to bet on such a volatile asset even for 30 minutes (BTC value changes often far exceed transfer fees), so every simple transfer turns into a bet, which I'm willing to pay to avoid. Not to mention that Bitcoin isn't liquid in many currencies.

danbruc 12y ago

This is true for 0.02 % of the world's population, at best. (This is more than the estimated number of people owning Bitcoins, like it or not.)

rglullis 12y ago
25 years ago, the same could be said of international phone calls. The world is getting smaller and smaller, there will be a point in the future where getting goods/services from someone across the ocean is as common as sending an email.
- danbruc 12y ago
  And I can already pay for this with my credit card today.
  - rglullis 12y ago
    That is a horrible counter-argument. What about the people on the other side of the transaction who (today) might not even have access to a bank account, let alone an international credit card? Also, tell me how do you hire someone working in a country with strong capital controls (e.g, Argentina). What good is your credit card if a contractor says "sorry, to use PayPal/Visa/Mastercard/Amex there is a 40-50% surcharge"?
    - mikeyouse 12y ago
      These people who don't have bank accounts and credit cards have internet and computers though (and the knowledge to harden these computers against attack)? Is there a problem that Bitcoin solves that isn't better solved by M-Pesa?
      - rglullis 12y ago
        M-Pesa depends on the mobile carriers obtaining special licenses to operate as banking agents. AFAIK, very few countries in the developed world allow this. > don't have bank accounts and credit cards have internet and computers though. Yes. Think of "nigerian scammers". Think how easy it is to get prepaid cell phones in most of the world, etc, etc...
        mikeyouse 12y ago
        Most of the 'Nigerian Scammers' use public computers in cafes / lounges. Would you expect people to use public computers for BTC business? How could they possibly secure these computers against Keyloggers and other means of 'hacking'?
        rglullis 12y ago
        Oh, man... Short answer: By not storing wallets in computers at all. Long, technical-focused answer: Paper wallets. Hardware wallets. USB drives that boot into a read-only operating system with your keys and a BTC client. Old cell phones that can be repurposed to run btc client software... you don't need to have a computer of your own to keep a wallet. And I haven't even mentioned hosted services! There is nothing (besides government regulation) stopping shop owners who work with M-Pesa to also offer "BTC vault services": using multi-sig, any BTC deposited in an account needs to be authorized by the vault. Longer, human-focused answer: stop thinking that the problem in underdeveloped countries is lack of access to material things. The problem with underdeveloped countries is the lack of consolidated, stable, sound institutions. The technicalities of how to use BTC (or any cryptocurrency) is not the problem, they can adapt by themselves to a new gadget. What they can't do - by themselves - is to create these institutions that the people in the developed world take for granted. A farmer will have access to Internet (just not so fast/ubiquitous/cheap), the thing they don't have is a bank to give them decent insurance in case their crops go bad, or any one to give them credit so that s/he can finance the purchase of supplies. They will have access to smartphones (not your "premium" iPhone, but that is only 2-3 years away by Moore's Law) and they will have cell phone access. What they don't have is a government that is stable enough to guarantee the money sent directly to him is as good as the money sent through some corrupt bureaucrat, or taxed away, or inflated away. The cool thing about BTC is how it completely disrupts the finance/banking industry. It turns a socio-economic-political problem into a technological one. It allows people who live in poor institutions to completely bypass them. --- So, to summarize: if you are an American whose only concern is to keep your money and the convenience that it is only possible due to the stable institutions that your country provides, by all means stay out of any crypto-currency. But if you'd like to live in a world where the barriers are down, with free flow of people and services and goods, then by all means take a look at BTC - not as way to get rich quickly, but as a way to make the world freer.
- rmah 12y ago
  25 years ago, billions of people could place international phone calls.
  - rglullis 12y ago
    I know, and that is kind of my point. I am not saying that money remittance is impossible without BTC. I am saying that it makes it so much easier and accessible that it's impossible to ignore. Sending money overseas today is possible, but comparing Paypal/Western Union with BTC is the same as comparing AT&T (the original one) with Skype.

sanswork 12y ago

I send money internationally a couple times a month and have known about bitcoin for a long time and its never even a consideration. Even though I have access to exchanges where the fees are low the time effort in first sending my money to an exchange then buying then sending it to the other side then having them sell on an exchange and then transfer the funds out is so much more painful than the existing "Open wire transfer, receive funds next day" unless your time is worth $0 it costs more too. There are now a few "instant" exchanges but unfortunately all instant methods at them are still marked up a fair bit. Add in the fact that if you don't have access to a good exchange and you're using LBC or an ATM you're probably paying more than wire fees for any non-negligible amount even without considering the time.

Estragon 12y ago

The price difference between BTCAUD and BTCUSD is very close to the cost of transferring money from an Australian bank to a US bank.

notabubble 12y ago

I regularly send money to Indonesia, and found that Ria is simpler and less expensive than BTC. End to end (including the margin on the USD/IDR conversion) the transaction costs for RIA around 2%. BTC for this transaction works out to around 3.5%, and it's harder to use to boot. BTC isn't useless, but your post is typical of BTC proponents. It sounds plausible, but it's actually bullshit.

Nursie 12y ago

True, it will. I'm not sure it will win, I have a pretty good/cheap service I used for this in the past already. But I'll at least look at it I guess.