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Ok, I'll probably get downvoted to death (therefore new account), but I am really interested in your opinion on this: Things like "Try being the only woman ove

by p23 12y ago

Ok, I'll probably get downvoted to death (therefore new account), but I am really interested in your opinion on this: Things like "Try being the only woman over 40." for me sounds like desperately looking for an excuse for not wanting to work there without really having one - similar to "I'm the only tall guy with black hair and blue eyes - I can't work there". Next, the "Halle Berry" thing: I'm not really into the specifics about her, but I'm not aware of anything negative. I only think of her as being really successful in her job. There is nothing about being a woman in there - when a guy with a huge beard would break the server there would be jokes like "Oh look, Gandalf broke the website today" which isn't bad either. I do not understand their problem about "being different" - I think of it as one of the biggest reasons for having people to do the job instead of 1000 equal robots (only second to "robots are not that far yet"). In addition to this: Isn't the diversity thing one of ideas a lot of "feminists" preach to convince people to look for "women who could do this job" instead of "everyone who could do this job"? And the last thing: In the article they complain about not getting a baby leave, which is totally valid, but doesn't that contradict the the other "we want to be treated equally" stuff?

calibraxis 12y ago
This is a Fortune article and lasted a couple minutes through HN's filters. The white CEO author appears to be oppressed along just one obvious axis, unlike some she discusses. It's going to be flawed and lacking. If you want something more serious, use teh internets and IT Startup Revolution and look for it.
smtddr 12y ago
I shouldn't even get involved in discussions about sexism or racism on HN. It always turns into a 3 page meta-meta-meta debate with no resolution. The whole tech scene needs to collectively take a sensitivity training course to regain its humanity. 1) >>"Try being the only woman over 40.... similar to "I'm the only tall guy with black hair and blue eyes - I can't work there". The fact that you see those 2 things as anything approaching remotely similar is an error in social perception that I cannot begin to explain. 2)>>Next, the "Halle Berry" thing: I'm not really into the specifics about her, but I'm not aware of anything negative. Halle Berry is a black woman; that's why her co-workers are using it. Calling her that is pretty much equiv to saying "Oh, the black woman broke the build this morning." Yes, she's black, she's a woman and it may very well be the fact that code she pushed broke the build. But, in the context of American history... and being the only black woman in an office of white males... that kind of phrasing is a problem and it's a subtle reminder that she's not "one of them" and they probably haven't accepted her. It's not at all the same as a bunch of same gender, same race people calling out one guy with a beard. Context is important. 3)>>And the last thing: In the article they complain about not getting a baby leave, which is totally valid, but doesn't that contradict the the other "we want to be treated equally" stuff? Humans are not computers. It's not 1 or 0. You can treat someone as an equal while also gracefully resolving particular situations. What this article is probably alluding to is the vibe of an office where you're made to feel guilty taking care of your own child. For a mom, their are real biological things like recovering from child birth and choosing to feed the child naturally. If, say, a man broke his leg skiing he'd probably get some time off and the guys would joke about it and smile. The typical vibe of a tech office won't make him feel guilty. If a woman needs some time off for a new child... it's not usually the same vibe. ______ P.S., I won't be replying anymore in this thread because I already know someone will come along with specious meta-debate and the thread will become like 3 pages long splitting hairs and debating the nature of the universe. I'm just posting here for the other HN readers who never post to let them know there are some in tech who do get it and understand what these women are expressing is a real issue and not something just made up in their heads. EDIT:....and boom, off the front page in like 5mins. HN itself is an example of these problems. Someone should write an article about how HN can't handle any discussion about racism or sexism in tech and really shine a bright light on it. I use to collect examples; I might have to start that up again.
- p23 12y ago
  To 1) and 2) That was kind of the point I was trying to make here: Being a woman and being 40 or being a woman and being black is a characteristic of someone - having blue eyes is one, too. You only feel different when you look at it specifically and point out it is "important" (for example "being a woman" compared to "having blue eyes"). And then you feel alone because of it. So why make it "important" in the first place?
  - omonra 12y ago
    Because it gives them something to bitch about. I bet that all guys in that company had nicknames. She got one for someone who was considered the most beautiful person the planet - and she's upset about it.
- ObviousScience 12y ago
  > If, say, a man broke his leg skiing he'd probably get some time off and the guys would joke about it and smile. The typical vibe of a tech office won't make him feel guilty. I'm not sure choosing to have a child and accidentally breaking your leg at the same thing, since you were so critical of people making false analogies. One is certainly much more of a choice than the other. That being said, your point isn't even true: I've been pressured to start working from home, answering calls/emails for consults, etc by more than one company while recovering from various illnesses or injuries. It's even been hinted at smaller companies that not working from home while sick is not "being a team player" and that it might negatively impact my prospects there.
- tomjen3 12y ago
  HN is about tech stuff and things that interest people. These kinds of stories gets killed, because they never contribute anything new. At best you learn that otherwise reasonable, intelligent people completely lose it when stuff like this gets introduced.
- DanBC 12y ago
  > EDIT:....and boom, off the front page in like 5mins. I flag stories like this precisely because they create the threads that you describe.

by p23 12y ago

calibraxis 12y ago

This is a Fortune article and lasted a couple minutes through HN's filters. The white CEO author appears to be oppressed along just one obvious axis, unlike some she discusses. It's going to be flawed and lacking. If you want something more serious, use teh internets and IT Startup Revolution and look for it.

smtddr 12y ago

I shouldn't even get involved in discussions about sexism or racism on HN. It always turns into a 3 page meta-meta-meta debate with no resolution. The whole tech scene needs to collectively take a sensitivity training course to regain its humanity. 1) >>"Try being the only woman over 40.... similar to "I'm the only tall guy with black hair and blue eyes - I can't work there". The fact that you see those 2 things as anything approaching remotely similar is an error in social perception that I cannot begin to explain. 2)>>Next, the "Halle Berry" thing: I'm not really into the specifics about her, but I'm not aware of anything negative. Halle Berry is a black woman; that's why her co-workers are using it. Calling her that is pretty much equiv to saying "Oh, the black woman broke the build this morning." Yes, she's black, she's a woman and it may very well be the fact that code she pushed broke the build. But, in the context of American history... and being the only black woman in an office of white males... that kind of phrasing is a problem and it's a subtle reminder that she's not "one of them" and they probably haven't accepted her. It's not at all the same as a bunch of same gender, same race people calling out one guy with a beard. Context is important. 3)>>And the last thing: In the article they complain about not getting a baby leave, which is totally valid, but doesn't that contradict the the other "we want to be treated equally" stuff? Humans are not computers. It's not 1 or 0. You can treat someone as an equal while also gracefully resolving particular situations. What this article is probably alluding to is the vibe of an office where you're made to feel guilty taking care of your own child. For a mom, their are real biological things like recovering from child birth and choosing to feed the child naturally. If, say, a man broke his leg skiing he'd probably get some time off and the guys would joke about it and smile. The typical vibe of a tech office won't make him feel guilty. If a woman needs some time off for a new child... it's not usually the same vibe. ______ P.S., I won't be replying anymore in this thread because I already know someone will come along with specious meta-debate and the thread will become like 3 pages long splitting hairs and debating the nature of the universe. I'm just posting here for the other HN readers who never post to let them know there are some in tech who do get it and understand what these women are expressing is a real issue and not something just made up in their heads. EDIT:....and boom, off the front page in like 5mins. HN itself is an example of these problems. Someone should write an article about how HN can't handle any discussion about racism or sexism in tech and really shine a bright light on it. I use to collect examples; I might have to start that up again.

p23 12y ago
To 1) and 2) That was kind of the point I was trying to make here: Being a woman and being 40 or being a woman and being black is a characteristic of someone - having blue eyes is one, too. You only feel different when you look at it specifically and point out it is "important" (for example "being a woman" compared to "having blue eyes"). And then you feel alone because of it. So why make it "important" in the first place?
- omonra 12y ago
  Because it gives them something to bitch about. I bet that all guys in that company had nicknames. She got one for someone who was considered the most beautiful person the planet - and she's upset about it.
ObviousScience 12y ago
> If, say, a man broke his leg skiing he'd probably get some time off and the guys would joke about it and smile. The typical vibe of a tech office won't make him feel guilty. I'm not sure choosing to have a child and accidentally breaking your leg at the same thing, since you were so critical of people making false analogies. One is certainly much more of a choice than the other. That being said, your point isn't even true: I've been pressured to start working from home, answering calls/emails for consults, etc by more than one company while recovering from various illnesses or injuries. It's even been hinted at smaller companies that not working from home while sick is not "being a team player" and that it might negatively impact my prospects there.
tomjen3 12y ago
HN is about tech stuff and things that interest people. These kinds of stories gets killed, because they never contribute anything new. At best you learn that otherwise reasonable, intelligent people completely lose it when stuff like this gets introduced.
DanBC 12y ago
> EDIT:....and boom, off the front page in like 5mins. I flag stories like this precisely because they create the threads that you describe.