4 ms·

Man, the nerve of some people. You're working at a company, where you willingly signed a work contract, which included things like "when you're at work you wil

by GuiA 12y ago

Man, the nerve of some people. You're working at a company, where you willingly signed a work contract, which included things like "when you're at work you will work" and "since we're paying you we'd like your full attention when you're at work". They're paying you to produce work according to said contract. You're also probably in tech, which means that your employer isn't Walmart or McDonald's or an Indonesian sweat shop and you're generously compensated in money and benefits. And now you're asking the internet for tips on how to break that contract without getting caught. Really? Even the 11th graders I teach have more common sense than that. Your non-immoral options are: 1) try to change your current position to part time so you can deal with your other business on the side. 2) quit your job, and find another job that will let you work on your side business during work hours (improbable) 3) quit your job, and go freelance to fund your venture (or wait tables, make coffee at Starbucks, whatever it is you need to do to pay your rent). 4) quit your job, go all in using your savings. No matter what, sneaking around and knowingly breaking your work contract and inventions agreement won't end well for you. At best you'll get fired, at worst you'll get sued. PS: since you're trying to start a company, what would you think if down the line you found out that one of your employees posted exactly this on HN?

new299 12y ago
The questioner wrote: "But how are you supposed to do that with a full time gig that has you technically under an inventions assignment agreement? Those agreements, arguably, would own anything you create while employed, at least if it's somewhat related to your full time job. Granted, their enforceability is questionable in a lot of cases (especially in California)..." Which means, his employer put a stipulation in the contract which means they own everything done while at work, or anything done outside of work (even if it's not related to the job). I would guess those stipulations are not really enforceable, but I don't know. You wrote: "since you're trying to start a company, what would you think if down the line you found out that one of your employees posted exactly this on HN?" I'm not the OP, but in my case I encourage my employees to have side projects. Even projects that could turn into businesses. I don't own them, and having those outlets often makes them better employees. They obviously have non-competes in their contract, which cover our area of business, but not unrelated side-projects. As a side note, I don't understand why your comment is so aggressive. You're probably right, in that if the contract is really as the poster states the safest thing is to find another job. However overall I think the moral fault lies with the employer, you shouldn't be able to restrict your employees in this way.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >As a side note, I don't understand why your comment is so aggressive. The cult of the "sanctity of contracts" is alive and well in America among some so-called libertarians (I think some like to call themselves voluntarists or something like that). I suspect they wouldn't mind having debt contracts with default clauses leading to 'voluntary' slavery much like occurred during the Roman empire.
crdoconnor 12y ago
>No matter what, sneaking around and knowingly breaking your work contract and inventions agreement won't end well for you. Contracts are not immutable law even if signed. California law explicitly renders non-competes unenforceable, for instance. Furthermore, non-competes and intellectual property agreements where the employer owns all your ideas are among the most unreasonable clauses added to modern day employment contracts. Under which ideological system is erecting legal barriers to competition a GOOD thing? Or owning your ideas during your time off? There is nothing moral about following the terms and conditions of an immoral contract signed because you need a roof over your head and food on the table. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is a laudable act to violate immoral agreements (signed because of said roof & food) just as it is a laudable act to violate immoral laws.
htss2013 12y ago
First, I'm not working on the startup while I'm "at work" (even though that entire concept is kind of bullshit nowadays with 24/7 work)...I'm certainly not working on it on company equipment, using any company resources, or talking to company clients. Second, the startup is not in the same business as my employer. My company doesn't sell stuff like this. My company is a big enough behemoth that it's conceivable in the future that they could sell anything, but they don't sell anything like this now and their current direction isn't anywhere near this. The contract states they own anything related to my work or what the company does. It's be a HELL of a stretch to say what I'm working on is related to my work or what the company does (or plausibly plans to do). I'm sure a lawyer will gladly argue in favor of the company, but clearly the spirit of the contract is that I don't steal company time, resources or clients to end up competing with my company -- that's not at all whatsoever what I'm talking about here. So, to answer your question, if I found out an employee was doing things which had nothing to do with my company on the side, I wouldn't give a shit -- and furthermore, I'd expect it because that's what happens in silicon valley.

by GuiA 12y ago

new299 12y ago

The questioner wrote: "But how are you supposed to do that with a full time gig that has you technically under an inventions assignment agreement? Those agreements, arguably, would own anything you create while employed, at least if it's somewhat related to your full time job. Granted, their enforceability is questionable in a lot of cases (especially in California)..." Which means, his employer put a stipulation in the contract which means they own everything done while at work, or anything done outside of work (even if it's not related to the job). I would guess those stipulations are not really enforceable, but I don't know. You wrote: "since you're trying to start a company, what would you think if down the line you found out that one of your employees posted exactly this on HN?" I'm not the OP, but in my case I encourage my employees to have side projects. Even projects that could turn into businesses. I don't own them, and having those outlets often makes them better employees. They obviously have non-competes in their contract, which cover our area of business, but not unrelated side-projects. As a side note, I don't understand why your comment is so aggressive. You're probably right, in that if the contract is really as the poster states the safest thing is to find another job. However overall I think the moral fault lies with the employer, you shouldn't be able to restrict your employees in this way.

crdoconnor 12y ago
>As a side note, I don't understand why your comment is so aggressive. The cult of the "sanctity of contracts" is alive and well in America among some so-called libertarians (I think some like to call themselves voluntarists or something like that). I suspect they wouldn't mind having debt contracts with default clauses leading to 'voluntary' slavery much like occurred during the Roman empire.

crdoconnor 12y ago

>No matter what, sneaking around and knowingly breaking your work contract and inventions agreement won't end well for you. Contracts are not immutable law even if signed. California law explicitly renders non-competes unenforceable, for instance. Furthermore, non-competes and intellectual property agreements where the employer owns all your ideas are among the most unreasonable clauses added to modern day employment contracts. Under which ideological system is erecting legal barriers to competition a GOOD thing? Or owning your ideas during your time off? There is nothing moral about following the terms and conditions of an immoral contract signed because you need a roof over your head and food on the table. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is a laudable act to violate immoral agreements (signed because of said roof & food) just as it is a laudable act to violate immoral laws.

htss2013 12y ago

First, I'm not working on the startup while I'm "at work" (even though that entire concept is kind of bullshit nowadays with 24/7 work)...I'm certainly not working on it on company equipment, using any company resources, or talking to company clients. Second, the startup is not in the same business as my employer. My company doesn't sell stuff like this. My company is a big enough behemoth that it's conceivable in the future that they could sell anything, but they don't sell anything like this now and their current direction isn't anywhere near this. The contract states they own anything related to my work or what the company does. It's be a HELL of a stretch to say what I'm working on is related to my work or what the company does (or plausibly plans to do). I'm sure a lawyer will gladly argue in favor of the company, but clearly the spirit of the contract is that I don't steal company time, resources or clients to end up competing with my company -- that's not at all whatsoever what I'm talking about here. So, to answer your question, if I found out an employee was doing things which had nothing to do with my company on the side, I wouldn't give a shit -- and furthermore, I'd expect it because that's what happens in silicon valley.