6 ms·

That is pretty damning. Blocking wifi signal is one thing, fraudulantly deauthing is like... fuck these people.

by jnevill 12y ago

mikeash 12y ago
If you or I got caught doing it to their systems, we'd probably go to jail. But when they do it to us, they get fined a few days' profits. Lovely double standard.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 12y ago
  You're accusing them of a double standard based on the supposition that they would have a double standard?
  - mikeash 12y ago
    Based on a long history of putting people in jail for similar offenses.
    - stickfigure 12y ago
      You can't put a corporation in jail.
      - mikeash 12y ago
        First of all, why not? If a corporation does something that would be worthy of prison in an individual, shut them down for a period of time as punishment. Second, even if you accept that, you could at least fine them an amount that will cause harm, rather than an amount they'll barely notice.
        stickfigure 12y ago
        Let's say a Mariott bus driver was caught racing down the freeway at 100mph in a company vehicle. Do you also wish to shut down Marriott, Inc for this offense? This is actually putting _lives_ at risk. Much more jailworthy than some mid-level manager's decision to violate some FCC rules, right?
        mikeash 12y ago
        If the corporation itself is not responsible, then the individual should be punished. If the corporation is somehow responsible (for example, they have a long history of systematic and deliberate violations with supporting policy), the corporation should be punished. Here, neither is happening. The individuals responsible are, as far as I can tell, being completely let off the hook, while the company gets a completely trivial fine.
        stickfigure 12y ago
        Why do you think that $600k is not commensurate with the offense? It may be a significant part of that business unit's income. It may be 10X the amount of revenue they obtained by breaking this particular law. It may have resulted in some people getting fired - possibly people who didn't even realize they were doing something illegal. Hell, there are at least a half-dozen switches I could flip in DD-WRT that will violate FCC rules and I have no idea which ones are which. I don't know this, nor do you. The people that do know this are the prosecutors in this case, and they considered that $600k (and the rest of the consent decree) was punishment that fit the crime. Unless you have some special knowledge of this particular case, I don't see why you are in a position to second guess them.
        mikeash 12y ago
        There's a long history of wrist-slaps for huge corporate crimes. Two recent examples are BP and Bank of America, both hailed as massive, unprecedented fines for massive crimes, both of which barely hurt either company. Proportionally, my cost for merely retaining a lawyer would affect me more than a $600,000 fine affects Marriott. Never mind the fact that I would probably go to jail and lose out on months or years of salary, not to mention freedom.
      - r00fus 12y ago
        That sounds like a bug, not a feature.
      - alexqgb 12y ago
        Except the corporation didn't do anything. And actual, living breathing human made a deliberate and criminal choice. And that dude belongs in jail. Or rather,"those dudes". A good prosecutor would start at the bottom and work his way up the chain of command, not stopping until he reached the highest level person who was aware of this without immediately moving to shut it down. Then he'd throw the book at they guy. Conference organization is a small world. Word would get out fast, and that really would be the end of it.
jweather 12y ago
How would you block wifi then? Sending deauth frames is the only way to contain a rogue AP without physical access. Generally these systems are used to enforce corporate network security policies by making sure Joe in accounting can't breach your top-secret network by plugging in a $25 wifi router so he can use his iPad on the office network. I'm not sure what the legal standing is once you get to publicly accessible spaces like colleges, stadiums, conference centers, etc.
- chetanahuja 12y ago
  This is a specious argument. The company is free to enact policies prohibiting the use of their own network in an unauthorized manner and enforce it in a legal way ( instituting the penalty of immediate firing usually works well). They don't have the right to jam public airwaves to enforce these rules.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

That is pretty damning. Blocking wifi signal is one thing, fraudulantly deauthing is like... fuck these people.

by jnevill 12y ago

That is pretty damning. Blocking wifi signal is one thing, fraudulantly deauthing is like... fuck these people.

If you or I got caught doing it to their systems, we'd probably go to jail. But when they do it to us, they get fined a few days' profits. Lovely double standard.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
icebraining 12y ago
You're accusing them of a double standard based on the supposition that they would have a double standard?
- mikeash 12y ago
  Based on a long history of putting people in jail for similar offenses.
  - stickfigure 12y ago
    You can't put a corporation in jail.
    - mikeash 12y ago
      First of all, why not? If a corporation does something that would be worthy of prison in an individual, shut them down for a period of time as punishment. Second, even if you accept that, you could at least fine them an amount that will cause harm, rather than an amount they'll barely notice.
      - stickfigure 12y ago
        Let's say a Mariott bus driver was caught racing down the freeway at 100mph in a company vehicle. Do you also wish to shut down Marriott, Inc for this offense? This is actually putting _lives_ at risk. Much more jailworthy than some mid-level manager's decision to violate some FCC rules, right?
        mikeash 12y ago
        If the corporation itself is not responsible, then the individual should be punished. If the corporation is somehow responsible (for example, they have a long history of systematic and deliberate violations with supporting policy), the corporation should be punished. Here, neither is happening. The individuals responsible are, as far as I can tell, being completely let off the hook, while the company gets a completely trivial fine.
        stickfigure 12y ago
        Why do you think that $600k is not commensurate with the offense? It may be a significant part of that business unit's income. It may be 10X the amount of revenue they obtained by breaking this particular law. It may have resulted in some people getting fired - possibly people who didn't even realize they were doing something illegal. Hell, there are at least a half-dozen switches I could flip in DD-WRT that will violate FCC rules and I have no idea which ones are which. I don't know this, nor do you. The people that do know this are the prosecutors in this case, and they considered that $600k (and the rest of the consent decree) was punishment that fit the crime. Unless you have some special knowledge of this particular case, I don't see why you are in a position to second guess them.
        mikeash 12y ago
        There's a long history of wrist-slaps for huge corporate crimes. Two recent examples are BP and Bank of America, both hailed as massive, unprecedented fines for massive crimes, both of which barely hurt either company. Proportionally, my cost for merely retaining a lawyer would affect me more than a $600,000 fine affects Marriott. Never mind the fact that I would probably go to jail and lose out on months or years of salary, not to mention freedom.
    - r00fus 12y ago
      That sounds like a bug, not a feature.
    - alexqgb 12y ago
      Except the corporation didn't do anything. And actual, living breathing human made a deliberate and criminal choice. And that dude belongs in jail. Or rather,"those dudes". A good prosecutor would start at the bottom and work his way up the chain of command, not stopping until he reached the highest level person who was aware of this without immediately moving to shut it down. Then he'd throw the book at they guy. Conference organization is a small world. Word would get out fast, and that really would be the end of it.

jweather 12y ago

How would you block wifi then? Sending deauth frames is the only way to contain a rogue AP without physical access. Generally these systems are used to enforce corporate network security policies by making sure Joe in accounting can't breach your top-secret network by plugging in a $25 wifi router so he can use his iPad on the office network. I'm not sure what the legal standing is once you get to publicly accessible spaces like colleges, stadiums, conference centers, etc.

chetanahuja 12y ago
This is a specious argument. The company is free to enact policies prohibiting the use of their own network in an unauthorized manner and enforce it in a legal way ( instituting the penalty of immediate firing usually works well). They don't have the right to jam public airwaves to enforce these rules.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]