5 ms·

To put things into perspective, a couple years ago North Korea sunk, without provocation, a South Korean ship with some >20 soldiers on board. Yet no war starte

by cyphunk 12y ago

To put things into perspective, a couple years ago North Korea sunk, without provocation, a South Korean ship with some >20 soldiers on board. Yet no war started. This year rebels in eastern Ukraine downed a civilian plane with >200 civilians, many from the Netherlands, using weapons supplied to them by Russia. Yet no war started. Not only but two war ships sold by France to Russia, sitting in EU harbours, continued onward with their training of Russian solders. Israel baited the public into hate-mongering, directed that hate at an enemy under false pretence and then began a military campaign that was grotesque (based on facts at: 1,2). The public will never forget this. I grew up in Israel during the 2nd intifada and watched the west bank empty itself of the majority of the moderate populace with anyone that could move elsewhere doing so. We are watching the same thing happen more slowly now with the Israeli public. First the moderate Israeli became a minority due to the 2nd intifada and then the more liberal have begun a mass exodus both due to the general environment of hate and ridiculous cost of living and work standards (of all OECD countries they work more hours per year than most [3]). The next 15 years is going to be a very interesting time for Israeli politics. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Immediate_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_confl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_... 3: http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

BugBrother 12y ago
You really handpicked the references about the teenagers. Hamas has admitted it was their cell, it has been discussed in other comments. Sigh... At least be honest about well known facts. :-( http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil-193125056.html http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil... About the examples: - That airplane might have been different, if Russia didn't have nuclear weapons. Now the Russian economy will only be crushed, instead. (That France might get an exception through when they'd lose a lot of money is another thing. Which you probably know.) - North Korea is being punished as much as is possible, since that seems to be the only way to get anywhere with evil juntas. ------- On the subject... So, you claim the rocket artillery and terror against Israel civilians would stop if the Israelis stopped trying to stop it? (How!? The last peace gestures from Israel were seen as weakness and resulted in many more attacks.) Or do you think that it is OK to shoot artillery at Je... Israeli civilians... for a few decades?
- cyphunk 12y ago
  I appreciate this response. You have brought us to the chicken and egg situation. I do believe Israel has reason to respond to artillery. I will also admit that Israel does not have the leverage South Korea does or EU/US do in the examples I gave. The lack of leverage is however partially their doing. 60+ years of occupation can do this. They took away the option of destroying their enemies economy because they already did that. They took away the option of removing their freedom of movement and sense of self-sufficiency because they have already done that. Finally they took away their ability for basic survival as they already starve the citizens of Gaza. So it is likely all they have left is to bomb. I have issue with the false pretence and escalation and I would have expected Israel to have reserved killing human shields for some later escalation. it is not a "human shield" if you shoot anyway. It's just a dead body. https://twitter.com/Tolstoved/status/493177973810294784 The stats concerning collateral damage in the previous war are astounding. Looking at only the percentage of children and women killed in comparison of the over all total, one has to be gobsmacked at any excuses. I seem to remember this number alone being more than 50% of all deaths. Considering that they were all likely not "combatants" one should also assume that a significant portion of the male deaths were also not combatant. I highly doubt Israel intended to kill so many innocent people but can't see any other explanation other than just turning a blind eye. It was, without a doubt, grotesque.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    >> I would have expected Israel to have reserved killing human shields for some later escalation. More of your "facts". :-( The Israelis talked a lot and made videos about "knocks on roofs", calling civilians and about not shooting where there were civilians. If that is wrong, you need better references than your last ones... But assume you are right -- maybe, possibly the Israeli side lowered themselves to the Hamas level in some cases. Come on, tell me you don't have different standards. :-) Never mind, bad fact errors in two comments. Enough. Please don't destroy HN. :-(
    - cyphunk 12y ago
      Again with my facts: http://gazadeaths.com/ http://gazadeaths.com/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-7-in-10-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-were-civilians-israel-disagrees/2014/08/29/44edc598-2faa-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-... My point was you do not even have to trust the UN's estimate that nearly 75% were civilians. You can use logical deduction to come to a number of more than %50 when you consider the number of women and children killed in comparison to the total, any total you find.

by cyphunk 12y ago

BugBrother 12y ago

You really handpicked the references about the teenagers. Hamas has admitted it was their cell, it has been discussed in other comments. Sigh... At least be honest about well known facts. :-( http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil-193125056.html http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil... About the examples: - That airplane might have been different, if Russia didn't have nuclear weapons. Now the Russian economy will only be crushed, instead. (That France might get an exception through when they'd lose a lot of money is another thing. Which you probably know.) - North Korea is being punished as much as is possible, since that seems to be the only way to get anywhere with evil juntas. ------- On the subject... So, you claim the rocket artillery and terror against Israel civilians would stop if the Israelis stopped trying to stop it? (How!? The last peace gestures from Israel were seen as weakness and resulted in many more attacks.) Or do you think that it is OK to shoot artillery at Je... Israeli civilians... for a few decades?

cyphunk 12y ago
I appreciate this response. You have brought us to the chicken and egg situation. I do believe Israel has reason to respond to artillery. I will also admit that Israel does not have the leverage South Korea does or EU/US do in the examples I gave. The lack of leverage is however partially their doing. 60+ years of occupation can do this. They took away the option of destroying their enemies economy because they already did that. They took away the option of removing their freedom of movement and sense of self-sufficiency because they have already done that. Finally they took away their ability for basic survival as they already starve the citizens of Gaza. So it is likely all they have left is to bomb. I have issue with the false pretence and escalation and I would have expected Israel to have reserved killing human shields for some later escalation. it is not a "human shield" if you shoot anyway. It's just a dead body. https://twitter.com/Tolstoved/status/493177973810294784 The stats concerning collateral damage in the previous war are astounding. Looking at only the percentage of children and women killed in comparison of the over all total, one has to be gobsmacked at any excuses. I seem to remember this number alone being more than 50% of all deaths. Considering that they were all likely not "combatants" one should also assume that a significant portion of the male deaths were also not combatant. I highly doubt Israel intended to kill so many innocent people but can't see any other explanation other than just turning a blind eye. It was, without a doubt, grotesque.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  >> I would have expected Israel to have reserved killing human shields for some later escalation. More of your "facts". :-( The Israelis talked a lot and made videos about "knocks on roofs", calling civilians and about not shooting where there were civilians. If that is wrong, you need better references than your last ones... But assume you are right -- maybe, possibly the Israeli side lowered themselves to the Hamas level in some cases. Come on, tell me you don't have different standards. :-) Never mind, bad fact errors in two comments. Enough. Please don't destroy HN. :-(
  - cyphunk 12y ago
    Again with my facts: http://gazadeaths.com/ http://gazadeaths.com/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-7-in-10-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-were-civilians-israel-disagrees/2014/08/29/44edc598-2faa-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-... My point was you do not even have to trust the UN's estimate that nearly 75% were civilians. You can use logical deduction to come to a number of more than %50 when you consider the number of women and children killed in comparison to the total, any total you find.