5 ms·

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is very complicated I agree. But the latest events were triggered by Hammas organization. That's all..

by jsz- 12y ago

IkmoIkmo 12y ago
> the latest events were triggered by Hammas organization Perhaps I'd take the comment a bit more seriously if you actually knew how to spell the name of the political party you're accusing and didn't create this account 1 hour ago just to reply to an article about Startups in Gaza that 'Hammas' triggered the latest events. Again, the situation is far more complex. There is no evidence that Hamas leadership was aware of, much less called for the kidnapping. It appears it was a lone cell. It's tragic, no less, but not grounds to trigger a war against an organisation who wasn't aware or responsible, especially not if it leaves over a thousand civilians dead and entire neighborhoods destroyed as collateral damage. Similarly, when a Palestinian boy was brutally beaten, kidnapped and burned alive days after by people unaffiliated with the IDF, there were obviously no grounds for anyone to start a war against the IDF, especially not if it'd leave over a thousand civilians dead. The aftermath of the kidnapping was important. On the phonecall that one of the kids made to report their kidnapping shots are heard, and that same day the bloody car is found in which the boys died. The Israeli government at that time knew the boys weren't alive, yet staged a campaign to round up members of a political party that they had no evidence to tie to the kidnapping. The kidnapping was used as a carte blanche under the pretense of a rescue operation, while it was obvious from the start there was sadly no rescuing to do. About 400 people were arrested, several houses were demolished and 10 Palestinians were killed in these raids. Imagine if Hamas went into Israel and arrested 400 people of the Likud party, killing 10 and demolishing homes, after being accused of killing innocent children without any evidence tying them to these crimes. (of course, ignoring the ironic fact that it's well-documented that the IDF did kill roughly 500 Palestinian children this year, like the kids playing football on the beach this summer) From there it escalated. Now let's look at the backdrop to this event. Hamas and Fatah sought to form a unity government, which was supported by virtually all of the planet including indeed the US, the UN and the EU, China, India, Russia etc. Israel was the only party who opposed it and immediately after announced building of 1500 houses in West Bank settlements, which may I remind you, are illegally occupied territory under international law, a fact that is again quite universally recognized by just about everyone except Israel. Again, imagine two political parties choosing to come together with the support of the entire world, one country opposing who promptly increases settlements in illegally occupied territories of the land governed by these two parties forming a unity government. This is the context in which such tragic events happen. People don't kidnap others as an extracurricular activity, and so it's doubly myopic to say it were kidnappings happening purely in isolation that triggered this. If I occupy part of your house, control your doorsteps, your electricity, your water, your fridge, oppose your political self-determination and announce to occupy extra parts of your house, and you hit me, and I start a war with you, it's myopic to simply say 'you hitting me triggered this war'. It's simply more complex than that and it does nobody good to take all these shortcuts. Obviously these settlements as a reaction to a political decision of two parties, and the subsequent raids, arrests, demolishing and killings of one of those parties, with the consequence of thousands of civilians dead, is the way of provocation and escalation, not diplomacy. Again, it's all much more complex.
- jsz- 12y ago
  Perhaps I'd take your comment more seriously if you didn't call Hamas a political party. But seriously - I have so much to say about what you wrote, but I don't think HN meant for this kind of discussion. So, back to on topic stuff: is RAILS really dead?
  - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
    It's quite clearly a political party. If that means you think I'm trying to legitimize them, I'm not, I'm very comfortable in saying I deplore many of their brutal actions and in also calling them a terrorist organisation. But it is also a political party that participated and won in elections. Whether elections were free or completely closed isn't relevant to basic terminology. Dictatorships have political parties, too. I'm assuming you also wouldn't have called Hezbollah a political party, or the NSDAP, or the CCP? Just because they do shitty things doesn't mean we can't use basic terminology to describe them. I really respect you withholding comment on anything else for the sake of keeping things on topic. Kudos. I'll make sure to do the same.
    - hnhg 12y ago
      It's sad that you're being downvoted for a reasonable and factually-based comment. This isn't reddit, folks.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  >> if you actually knew how to spell the name The commenter spelled correctly in the GP of the comment where it was wrongly spelled. But you probably knew that... I tried to not read the rest, so I would be tempted to discuss your claims. (If Hamas organize quite independent cells, it is hard to not claim responsibility when those cells do what they usually do. Hamas really have a long history of making heroes out of people targeting civilians. You might also note that the ones that did a revenge murder will end up in jail. Then we might comment on the hypocrisy of first shooting (at civilians!) from civilian areas -- then blaming the other side when return fire kills civilians...)

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is very complicated I agree. But the latest events were triggered by Hammas organization. That's all..

by jsz- 12y ago

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is very complicated I agree. But the latest events were triggered by Hammas organization. That's all..

IkmoIkmo 12y ago

> the latest events were triggered by Hammas organization Perhaps I'd take the comment a bit more seriously if you actually knew how to spell the name of the political party you're accusing and didn't create this account 1 hour ago just to reply to an article about Startups in Gaza that 'Hammas' triggered the latest events. Again, the situation is far more complex. There is no evidence that Hamas leadership was aware of, much less called for the kidnapping. It appears it was a lone cell. It's tragic, no less, but not grounds to trigger a war against an organisation who wasn't aware or responsible, especially not if it leaves over a thousand civilians dead and entire neighborhoods destroyed as collateral damage. Similarly, when a Palestinian boy was brutally beaten, kidnapped and burned alive days after by people unaffiliated with the IDF, there were obviously no grounds for anyone to start a war against the IDF, especially not if it'd leave over a thousand civilians dead. The aftermath of the kidnapping was important. On the phonecall that one of the kids made to report their kidnapping shots are heard, and that same day the bloody car is found in which the boys died. The Israeli government at that time knew the boys weren't alive, yet staged a campaign to round up members of a political party that they had no evidence to tie to the kidnapping. The kidnapping was used as a carte blanche under the pretense of a rescue operation, while it was obvious from the start there was sadly no rescuing to do. About 400 people were arrested, several houses were demolished and 10 Palestinians were killed in these raids. Imagine if Hamas went into Israel and arrested 400 people of the Likud party, killing 10 and demolishing homes, after being accused of killing innocent children without any evidence tying them to these crimes. (of course, ignoring the ironic fact that it's well-documented that the IDF did kill roughly 500 Palestinian children this year, like the kids playing football on the beach this summer) From there it escalated. Now let's look at the backdrop to this event. Hamas and Fatah sought to form a unity government, which was supported by virtually all of the planet including indeed the US, the UN and the EU, China, India, Russia etc. Israel was the only party who opposed it and immediately after announced building of 1500 houses in West Bank settlements, which may I remind you, are illegally occupied territory under international law, a fact that is again quite universally recognized by just about everyone except Israel. Again, imagine two political parties choosing to come together with the support of the entire world, one country opposing who promptly increases settlements in illegally occupied territories of the land governed by these two parties forming a unity government. This is the context in which such tragic events happen. People don't kidnap others as an extracurricular activity, and so it's doubly myopic to say it were kidnappings happening purely in isolation that triggered this. If I occupy part of your house, control your doorsteps, your electricity, your water, your fridge, oppose your political self-determination and announce to occupy extra parts of your house, and you hit me, and I start a war with you, it's myopic to simply say 'you hitting me triggered this war'. It's simply more complex than that and it does nobody good to take all these shortcuts. Obviously these settlements as a reaction to a political decision of two parties, and the subsequent raids, arrests, demolishing and killings of one of those parties, with the consequence of thousands of civilians dead, is the way of provocation and escalation, not diplomacy. Again, it's all much more complex.

jsz- 12y ago
Perhaps I'd take your comment more seriously if you didn't call Hamas a political party. But seriously - I have so much to say about what you wrote, but I don't think HN meant for this kind of discussion. So, back to on topic stuff: is RAILS really dead?
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  It's quite clearly a political party. If that means you think I'm trying to legitimize them, I'm not, I'm very comfortable in saying I deplore many of their brutal actions and in also calling them a terrorist organisation. But it is also a political party that participated and won in elections. Whether elections were free or completely closed isn't relevant to basic terminology. Dictatorships have political parties, too. I'm assuming you also wouldn't have called Hezbollah a political party, or the NSDAP, or the CCP? Just because they do shitty things doesn't mean we can't use basic terminology to describe them. I really respect you withholding comment on anything else for the sake of keeping things on topic. Kudos. I'll make sure to do the same.
  - hnhg 12y ago
    It's sad that you're being downvoted for a reasonable and factually-based comment. This isn't reddit, folks.
BugBrother 12y ago
>> if you actually knew how to spell the name The commenter spelled correctly in the GP of the comment where it was wrongly spelled. But you probably knew that... I tried to not read the rest, so I would be tempted to discuss your claims. (If Hamas organize quite independent cells, it is hard to not claim responsibility when those cells do what they usually do. Hamas really have a long history of making heroes out of people targeting civilians. You might also note that the ones that did a revenge murder will end up in jail. Then we might comment on the hypocrisy of first shooting (at civilians!) from civilian areas -- then blaming the other side when return fire kills civilians...)