5 ms·

> Justice must be served, and if necessary, people need to go to jail. Do you really think sending a few scapegoats to prison will solve anything? The problems

by zeteo 12y ago

> Justice must be served, and if necessary, people need to go to jail. Do you really think sending a few scapegoats to prison will solve anything? The problems are systemic. Some faces may change but the agencies remain organized and financed the same way.

AnimalMuppet 12y ago
But why are the problems systemic? Because some highly-placed people changed policy. Jail them. Don't jail every peon for following the rules as given to them (though they should not have done so). Jail every high-level person who didn't follow the rules as given to them, i.e., the Constitution.
- theworst 12y ago
  I recommend reading Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem". Arendt discusses this very issue WRT Nazis in WW2 -- in most cases, the systems are structured in such a way that there isn't an evil overlord making those decisions. Even amongst the Nazis, most high level people had compartmentalized knowledge that was only evil when combined. Indeed, the subtitle and thesis of the book reflects that: "on the banality of evil." Her theory is that unethical organizations can structure themselves in such a way that almost nobody is actively breaking the law.
  - pieter_mj 12y ago
    Many of the scientists operating/designing these facilities Bamford mentioned in the article were actual Nazis brought into the US through operation paperclip. Hardly surprising the organisations that employ them feel they're above the law.
    - herge 12y ago
      > Hardly surprising the organisations that employ them feel they're above the law. The U.S. Army feels that it is above the law?
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    In that case we should just fire many of them for failing to prevent the illegal actions they were apart of. I understand and agree with the high bar for criminal culpability, but at the very least many of them failed in their duties to the american people. We don't throw people in jail for that kind of failure, but we don't have to keep paying them for it either.
pdkl95 12y ago
As someone who usually makes statements against the NSA and other rogue agencies (or other types of corruption), I'm going to have to defend them here. While there are certainly people at the top that need to go to jail (and it obviously is an open question as to who and how many), I strongly suspect that many of the people working there are simply following vague or seemingly-unrelated orders. Also, cries of urgency and need are hard to ignore, especially when they are wrapped in patriotism and the idea that you're trying to protect others. All of this is especially true at the NSA, which is historically very compartmentalized ("need to know"), which further confuses the issue. As for the future once those responsible are jailed, vigilance is the price of peace. In this case, what would be making sure regulation/oversight happens and actually has the power to do their job. The problem of regulatory capture is the systemic problem across the government in general. We need to address that problem (urgently), but it is not an NSA specific problem.
- jrochkind1 12y ago
  Would it make people think twice about following illegal orders, if they knew they could be prosecuted for it? I don't think the threat of prosecution would, actually, for several reasons. But it any part of the government was willing to uphold the law, it might make people think twice, that maybe following illegal orders isn't patriotic after all.
  - pdkl95 12y ago
    While I'm not sure the effect the fear of prosecution might have, it is very important to stop conditioning people that they are above the law. Operant conditioning works, and it is a very bad idea in the long run to put people in a Skinner Box that teaches people not only that they won't be prosecuted, but can gain benefits like the occasional promotion for efficiently getting "results".
  - femto 12y ago
    Maybe that's the NSA's real fear about Snowden: that his whistle blowing may allow the NSA's own employees to see a bigger picture, past the "need to know", and that employees might realise that they are part of illegal activities, resulting in a revolt from within?
pyre 12y ago
I think that the general idea is, 'if they can get away with it, so can I,' will no cause positive outcomes.

by zeteo 12y ago

AnimalMuppet 12y ago

But why are the problems systemic? Because some highly-placed people changed policy. Jail them. Don't jail every peon for following the rules as given to them (though they should not have done so). Jail every high-level person who didn't follow the rules as given to them, i.e., the Constitution.

theworst 12y ago
I recommend reading Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem". Arendt discusses this very issue WRT Nazis in WW2 -- in most cases, the systems are structured in such a way that there isn't an evil overlord making those decisions. Even amongst the Nazis, most high level people had compartmentalized knowledge that was only evil when combined. Indeed, the subtitle and thesis of the book reflects that: "on the banality of evil." Her theory is that unethical organizations can structure themselves in such a way that almost nobody is actively breaking the law.
- pieter_mj 12y ago
  Many of the scientists operating/designing these facilities Bamford mentioned in the article were actual Nazis brought into the US through operation paperclip. Hardly surprising the organisations that employ them feel they're above the law.
  - herge 12y ago
    > Hardly surprising the organisations that employ them feel they're above the law. The U.S. Army feels that it is above the law?
- seanflyon 12y ago
  In that case we should just fire many of them for failing to prevent the illegal actions they were apart of. I understand and agree with the high bar for criminal culpability, but at the very least many of them failed in their duties to the american people. We don't throw people in jail for that kind of failure, but we don't have to keep paying them for it either.

pdkl95 12y ago

As someone who usually makes statements against the NSA and other rogue agencies (or other types of corruption), I'm going to have to defend them here. While there are certainly people at the top that need to go to jail (and it obviously is an open question as to who and how many), I strongly suspect that many of the people working there are simply following vague or seemingly-unrelated orders. Also, cries of urgency and need are hard to ignore, especially when they are wrapped in patriotism and the idea that you're trying to protect others. All of this is especially true at the NSA, which is historically very compartmentalized ("need to know"), which further confuses the issue. As for the future once those responsible are jailed, vigilance is the price of peace. In this case, what would be making sure regulation/oversight happens and actually has the power to do their job. The problem of regulatory capture is the systemic problem across the government in general. We need to address that problem (urgently), but it is not an NSA specific problem.

jrochkind1 12y ago
Would it make people think twice about following illegal orders, if they knew they could be prosecuted for it? I don't think the threat of prosecution would, actually, for several reasons. But it any part of the government was willing to uphold the law, it might make people think twice, that maybe following illegal orders isn't patriotic after all.
- pdkl95 12y ago
  While I'm not sure the effect the fear of prosecution might have, it is very important to stop conditioning people that they are above the law. Operant conditioning works, and it is a very bad idea in the long run to put people in a Skinner Box that teaches people not only that they won't be prosecuted, but can gain benefits like the occasional promotion for efficiently getting "results".
- femto 12y ago
  Maybe that's the NSA's real fear about Snowden: that his whistle blowing may allow the NSA's own employees to see a bigger picture, past the "need to know", and that employees might realise that they are part of illegal activities, resulting in a revolt from within?

pyre 12y ago

I think that the general idea is, 'if they can get away with it, so can I,' will no cause positive outcomes.