8 ms·

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term

by Naritai 12y ago

While I'm a big supporter of international co-operation, remember that the US has been striking a number of technical deals with India, as a part of a long-term political investment in bringing up a large democratic power to balance China. I think this has as much to do with that goal as it does with sharing technical information.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to know what exactly that is, and how it differs from other modern powers) isn't brought up in the region. Forgive my ignorance. I probably should have taught myself these things long ago rather than invested all of my time in programming and other pursuits. Also, just to clarify, I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era. So I'm quite curious to understand the issues at play here.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- pdx 12y ago
  Substitute "large democratic power to balance China" with "large power to balance China", and I think it makes more sense. U.S. foreign policy seems to be to hinder the expansion of other large powers in an attempt to keep them small enough to not be an existential threat at some point in the far future. You send money and aid to whom ever is in a position to hinder those who are growing too powerful, whether the group you are sending that money and aid to is democratic or not. This is not about right and wrong. It's about long term strategy, aimed at preserving the status quo for as long as possible. If you hinder your competitors, that keeps them from becoming even more of a threat to you.
  - brd 12y ago
    I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation 1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy. 2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts. *fixed implication that India wasn't a Democracy, was simply stating a motive for the "Democratic" part of "Democratic Power"
    - manojlds 12y ago
      "Make" India a democracy?
    - lnkmails 12y ago
      I just want to remind everyone that India is already a democracy and has been like that ever since her Independence from British colonialism. In general, I can understand the speculation that US is pushing money to India to balance China. US's perception of India has changed recently after their unsuccessful collaboration attempts with Pakistan. But in this particular case, I think the successful launch of a Mars orbiter at a budget price is a story that NASA would like to emulate too. I don't see political motivations behind this collaboration.
    - fillskills 12y ago
      Something to note regarding recent US and Indian history - During the cold war, India supported Russia (Not much of real support, mostly supporting in words and buying technology from Russia in turn). So US ended up supporting Pakistan and China. Pakistan continuously tried different ways to discourage India's development. Not sure if all that had any major effect on the cold war, but it certainly had serious repercussions in current Middle East wars and soured US relationships with India. With China and Russia as a threat now, US may be trying to appease India to balance out the powers here. Plus India no longer closely associates with Russia. Seperately, India is trying to stand up on its own feet with a strong economic growth and there is political and public will to support India's growth with the rise of Modi, AAP and the young educated/worldly generation.
- andrewljohnson 12y ago
  I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the internet uncensored, and the right to vote.
  - Naritai 12y ago
    I'm referring to the US government's 'us vs. them' attitude towards the countries that it defines as democracies (the 'free world'), and the countries it defines as dictatorships (including China). I am aware the truth is significantly more nuanced than that, but in my post I'm interpreting the motives of the US government, not my personal take on the matter. update: pdx's comment does a great job of providing a deeper explanation.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked to be cut a break for it. Regarding your list: - Right to travel: There are many people from China living in the US. Do you have more info about this point? I don't understand how their right to travel is restricted. - Right to free speech: If you were to try to start a new news organization to compete with CBS/Fox/etc, the organization wouldn't get very far unless it had a clear political agenda and was funded by supporters of that agenda. I'm interested to hear about what it's like in China in comparison to the US. - Right to read the internet uncensored: There's no debate on this point. - Right to vote: Candidates seem to be elected based on how well-funded they are. Or rather, no one votes for an underfunded candidate, so these are equivalent. Again, I am interested to hear about China's system, and why it's morally inferior in comparison to this. Thanks for your time. I realize I probably sound pretty dumb here, but I'm here to learn, not to defend my position. In fact, I have no position. Only questions.
- randallsquared 12y ago
  > Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion The US' relationship with those places it has influence is more of a reverse empire: there's always a net outflow of money/resources.
- Naga 12y ago
  He means that India is a large (as in population, which is an indicator of possible industrial and economic power, military, etc) country that is a democratic country as well. That's important because democratic countries tend to align together, since public opinion matters and public opinion generally favours peace, especially against other countries that also generally want peace. So, the importance of India is that it could act as a counterweight to China in Asia. China obviously is an economic giant, but as a military power it is largely regional and has little ability to project force. A powerful India limits its abilities in Asia.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  > What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? In this context, "large democratic power" refers to India, the world's largest democracy with over 1.2 billion citizens. Even the logistics to conduct fair elections for a populace this size are quite intimidating: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/indian-democracy-runs-on-briefcase-sized-voting-machines/360554/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/ind...
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  What's a large democratic power India is indisputably a democratic country, not withstanding its developing status or struggles with corruption; they just ran what is probably the largest general election in history a few months back, followed by a smooth transfer of power. It's also large, because it has a population of 1.25 billion people, close to China's 1.36 billion people. And it's a power because it has nuclear weapons, although it is unfortunately not a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Forgive my ignorance. I probably should have taught myself these things long ago rather than invested all of my time in programming and other pursuits. Don't be obtuse. Not everything is code for something else. If you think the US's motives here are really empire expansion then fair enough - I don't really agree but I can certainly see why you might think so. But asking what 'large democratic power' means, without bothering to consider the possibility of it being a simple literal description, seems disingenuous.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    The amount of nasty personal attacks I've attracted for the mistake of asking a question on HN has ensured I won't be making it again for a long time. Personal attacks are not allowed on HN, but that hasn't stopped you from calling me a person who is being obtuse and disingenuous. Did you ever stop to consider that I am ignorant of these matters, as I have said at least three times now? I don't know if you're having a bad day or what. Imagine if I had asked a newbie programming question, after admitting to and apologizing for being a newbie programmer, and you'd responded as you did here. Would you be okay with that? Just because the topic is politics, suddenly it's totally okay to insult? Anyway, thank you for the information. I hadn't heard of India's general elections and smooth transfer of power, so that helps clarify things for me. I appreciate it.
    - saraid216 12y ago
      > I hadn't heard of India's general elections and smooth transfer of power, so that helps clarify things for me. This book: read it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_After_Gandhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_After_Gandhi
    - 12y ago
helium 12y ago
Sure, just like probably the biggest reason the US put a man on the Moon is because of the Cold War. Still pretty cool.
- Naritai 12y ago
  True! I do think it's a net win-win.
  - justicezyx 12y ago
    You miss the point in the post you are replying...
Shivetya 12y ago
that and our current "partner", Russia, isn't so reliable anymore. This can be simple acknowledgment of who else will be a viable when it comes to space exploration and exploitation.
falsestprophet 12y ago
"Remember" that people on the internet state their opinion as fact without substantiating that opinion with facts. The parent comment, which at this time is the #1 comment, does not contribute to understanding why the United States and India made this agreement.
- bostonpete 12y ago
  > people on the internet state their opinion as fact without substantiating that opinion with facts Do you have any evidence to back this claim up?
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India; Prime Minister Modi just had his first meeting with President Obama the other day. Meanwhile, the US has been at odds with China over its ballooning territorial claims in the South China Sea, to the point of possibly terminating the ban on arms sales to Viet Nam. I don't think the GP needs to provide citations for such easily acquired current affairs knowledge.
  - falsestprophet 12y ago
    Here we go again. Opinion: Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India Unconvincing evidence: The President met with the President of India. Mr. Obama also met with the mayor of Gary, Indiana yesterday. It is easy to acquire incomplete current affairs knowledge. You are attributing the United States motivation to counter China to claims to the South China sea. I can think of dozens of other sources of friction between these countries that also contribute: human rights, intellectual property protection, hacking of US government computers, hacking of US corporation computers, influence in SE Asia, influence in Africa, claims in the East China sea, support of North Korea, support of Iran, support of Assad, climate policy, trade imbalance, nuclear proliferation, etc. But, some claims in the South East China sea are the reason the US is partnering with India on the space program? Not supported by facts. Why pollute Hacker News with unsubstantiated opinions or worse half backed (more like 1/128 baked) analysis?
hkarthik 12y ago
Are the government officials using the scientists to further their own geopolitical ambitions? Or are the scientists of both countries using their government officials to fund their scientific curiosities? Probably a bit of both, IMO.

by Naritai 12y ago

sillysaurus3 12y ago

I have a dumb question. What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? I'm not implying China is in any way democratic, but rather inviting someone to further explain what the goal of the US is. Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion rather than an altruistic goal of balancing China? Mainly I'm just wondering what the concerns might be if a large democratic power (and I'd still like to know what exactly that is, and how it differs from other modern powers) isn't brought up in the region. Forgive my ignorance. I probably should have taught myself these things long ago rather than invested all of my time in programming and other pursuits. Also, just to clarify, I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era. So I'm quite curious to understand the issues at play here.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pdx 12y ago
Substitute "large democratic power to balance China" with "large power to balance China", and I think it makes more sense. U.S. foreign policy seems to be to hinder the expansion of other large powers in an attempt to keep them small enough to not be an existential threat at some point in the far future. You send money and aid to whom ever is in a position to hinder those who are growing too powerful, whether the group you are sending that money and aid to is democratic or not. This is not about right and wrong. It's about long term strategy, aimed at preserving the status quo for as long as possible. If you hinder your competitors, that keeps them from becoming even more of a threat to you.
- brd 12y ago
  I had written something similar but you put it much more succinctly. The only things I'd add to this explanation 1) Democracy is the US rallying cry, our allies are more defensible when we do so in the name of democracy. 2) The powers that be are highly adept at manipulating a voting population so making an ally a democracy will likely turn it into a predictable/manipulable Plutocracy of sorts. *fixed implication that India wasn't a Democracy, was simply stating a motive for the "Democratic" part of "Democratic Power"
  - manojlds 12y ago
    "Make" India a democracy?
  - lnkmails 12y ago
    I just want to remind everyone that India is already a democracy and has been like that ever since her Independence from British colonialism. In general, I can understand the speculation that US is pushing money to India to balance China. US's perception of India has changed recently after their unsuccessful collaboration attempts with Pakistan. But in this particular case, I think the successful launch of a Mars orbiter at a budget price is a story that NASA would like to emulate too. I don't see political motivations behind this collaboration.
  - fillskills 12y ago
    Something to note regarding recent US and Indian history - During the cold war, India supported Russia (Not much of real support, mostly supporting in words and buying technology from Russia in turn). So US ended up supporting Pakistan and China. Pakistan continuously tried different ways to discourage India's development. Not sure if all that had any major effect on the cold war, but it certainly had serious repercussions in current Middle East wars and soured US relationships with India. With China and Russia as a threat now, US may be trying to appease India to balance out the powers here. Plus India no longer closely associates with Russia. Seperately, India is trying to stand up on its own feet with a strong economic growth and there is political and public will to support India's growth with the rise of Modi, AAP and the young educated/worldly generation.
andrewljohnson 12y ago
I am aware of the textbook definition of "democracy," "republic," etc, but it seems like those names are more of a flag for people to fight under than a definition for a state of being in the modern era You seem to be assigning moral equivalence to democracy and Chinese communism/totalitarianism. If you aren't just trolling, then differences include the right to travel, the right to free speech, the right to read the internet uncensored, and the right to vote.
- Naritai 12y ago
  I'm referring to the US government's 'us vs. them' attitude towards the countries that it defines as democracies (the 'free world'), and the countries it defines as dictatorships (including China). I am aware the truth is significantly more nuanced than that, but in my post I'm interpreting the motives of the US government, not my personal take on the matter. update: pdx's comment does a great job of providing a deeper explanation.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  More like there are a billion of them, and I'm sure they see us as morally inferior, just as you see them. I'm here to understand the issues and make my own decision. Haven't you ever wondered about something that you knew nothing about? How would you learn about it other than reading and asking questions? I have no idea how you concluded that I might be trolling, especially after I both admitted ignorance and asked to be cut a break for it. Regarding your list: - Right to travel: There are many people from China living in the US. Do you have more info about this point? I don't understand how their right to travel is restricted. - Right to free speech: If you were to try to start a new news organization to compete with CBS/Fox/etc, the organization wouldn't get very far unless it had a clear political agenda and was funded by supporters of that agenda. I'm interested to hear about what it's like in China in comparison to the US. - Right to read the internet uncensored: There's no debate on this point. - Right to vote: Candidates seem to be elected based on how well-funded they are. Or rather, no one votes for an underfunded candidate, so these are equivalent. Again, I am interested to hear about China's system, and why it's morally inferior in comparison to this. Thanks for your time. I realize I probably sound pretty dumb here, but I'm here to learn, not to defend my position. In fact, I have no position. Only questions.
randallsquared 12y ago
> Is it likely that this is simply empire expansion The US' relationship with those places it has influence is more of a reverse empire: there's always a net outflow of money/resources.
Naga 12y ago
He means that India is a large (as in population, which is an indicator of possible industrial and economic power, military, etc) country that is a democratic country as well. That's important because democratic countries tend to align together, since public opinion matters and public opinion generally favours peace, especially against other countries that also generally want peace. So, the importance of India is that it could act as a counterweight to China in Asia. China obviously is an economic giant, but as a military power it is largely regional and has little ability to project force. A powerful India limits its abilities in Asia.
ForHackernews 12y ago
> What's a large democratic power, and how does it differ from China? In this context, "large democratic power" refers to India, the world's largest democracy with over 1.2 billion citizens. Even the logistics to conduct fair elections for a populace this size are quite intimidating: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/indian-democracy-runs-on-briefcase-sized-voting-machines/360554/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/ind...
anigbrowl 12y ago
What's a large democratic power India is indisputably a democratic country, not withstanding its developing status or struggles with corruption; they just ran what is probably the largest general election in history a few months back, followed by a smooth transfer of power. It's also large, because it has a population of 1.25 billion people, close to China's 1.36 billion people. And it's a power because it has nuclear weapons, although it is unfortunately not a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Forgive my ignorance. I probably should have taught myself these things long ago rather than invested all of my time in programming and other pursuits. Don't be obtuse. Not everything is code for something else. If you think the US's motives here are really empire expansion then fair enough - I don't really agree but I can certainly see why you might think so. But asking what 'large democratic power' means, without bothering to consider the possibility of it being a simple literal description, seems disingenuous.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  The amount of nasty personal attacks I've attracted for the mistake of asking a question on HN has ensured I won't be making it again for a long time. Personal attacks are not allowed on HN, but that hasn't stopped you from calling me a person who is being obtuse and disingenuous. Did you ever stop to consider that I am ignorant of these matters, as I have said at least three times now? I don't know if you're having a bad day or what. Imagine if I had asked a newbie programming question, after admitting to and apologizing for being a newbie programmer, and you'd responded as you did here. Would you be okay with that? Just because the topic is politics, suddenly it's totally okay to insult? Anyway, thank you for the information. I hadn't heard of India's general elections and smooth transfer of power, so that helps clarify things for me. I appreciate it.
  - saraid216 12y ago
    > I hadn't heard of India's general elections and smooth transfer of power, so that helps clarify things for me. This book: read it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_After_Gandhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_After_Gandhi
  - 12y ago

helium 12y ago

Sure, just like probably the biggest reason the US put a man on the Moon is because of the Cold War. Still pretty cool.

Naritai 12y ago
True! I do think it's a net win-win.
- justicezyx 12y ago
  You miss the point in the post you are replying...

Shivetya 12y ago

that and our current "partner", Russia, isn't so reliable anymore. This can be simple acknowledgment of who else will be a viable when it comes to space exploration and exploitation.

falsestprophet 12y ago

"Remember" that people on the internet state their opinion as fact without substantiating that opinion with facts. The parent comment, which at this time is the #1 comment, does not contribute to understanding why the United States and India made this agreement.

bostonpete 12y ago
> people on the internet state their opinion as fact without substantiating that opinion with facts Do you have any evidence to back this claim up?
anigbrowl 12y ago
Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India; Prime Minister Modi just had his first meeting with President Obama the other day. Meanwhile, the US has been at odds with China over its ballooning territorial claims in the South China Sea, to the point of possibly terminating the ban on arms sales to Viet Nam. I don't think the GP needs to provide citations for such easily acquired current affairs knowledge.
- falsestprophet 12y ago
  Here we go again. Opinion: Anyone who pays attention to international affairs knows that the US has been seeking a rapprochement with India Unconvincing evidence: The President met with the President of India. Mr. Obama also met with the mayor of Gary, Indiana yesterday. It is easy to acquire incomplete current affairs knowledge. You are attributing the United States motivation to counter China to claims to the South China sea. I can think of dozens of other sources of friction between these countries that also contribute: human rights, intellectual property protection, hacking of US government computers, hacking of US corporation computers, influence in SE Asia, influence in Africa, claims in the East China sea, support of North Korea, support of Iran, support of Assad, climate policy, trade imbalance, nuclear proliferation, etc. But, some claims in the South East China sea are the reason the US is partnering with India on the space program? Not supported by facts. Why pollute Hacker News with unsubstantiated opinions or worse half backed (more like 1/128 baked) analysis?

hkarthik 12y ago

Are the government officials using the scientists to further their own geopolitical ambitions? Or are the scientists of both countries using their government officials to fund their scientific curiosities? Probably a bit of both, IMO.