3 ms·

That article has a point, but it doesn't serve any purpose other than highlighting a problem we already know about--let's leave the dead horses alone. As a min

by tiffani 17y ago

That article has a point, but it doesn't serve any purpose other than highlighting a problem we already know about--let's leave the dead horses alone. As a minority (black female), it's nothing new. > "Attracting students' interest to fields where they have been traditionally underrepresented is a challenge, Ms. Bozeman said." It's a challenge for reasons the article doesn't even mention. A certain elementary school I volunteered at during college in DC brings to mind why it might be an issue with minorities. The school was predominantly minority--hispanics and blacks--and it seemed like the school system had forgotten about the kids. (Yes, we know many DC schools have serious problems.) Some of them didn't know their ABCs, had trouble with numbers, and couldn't even write their own names. Granted this was a kindergarten class, but it wasn't as if my friends and I showed up to volunteer on the first day of school for them either. We asked some of the kids if their parents helped them with their homework, etc. and most of them said no. The school itself lacked basic supplies (no pencils with erasers for kindergartners??). The problem starts wayyy before we've even gotten the kids to the college level and by then, I tend to think it's a little late to be thinking of how to deal with it. Kids have to be set up earlier than high school and college for this stuff. And I don't mean pulling a few kids aside from each class for academically gifted enrichment activities. There definitely needs to be a wholesale overhaul of education in such a way that all kids think about those kinds of careers. With that being said, I think the basic premise of the article is flawed, too. I think we're experiencing a brain-drain all across the board and it just happens to be the case where minorities stand out once again. I grew up in a pretty diverse environment (military brat) and I can't say all of my white, asian, and indian friends were flocking to AP Calculus either! lol. As a matter of fact, most of my non-minority friends from high school who were considered by teachers and students alike to be smart actually didn't even go into fields like math or science--they tended to prefer journalism or law--with the occasional biology major. This is an issue affecting everybody.

bilbo0s 17y ago
So . . . uhhh . . . What is your suggested solution. Or are you just telling us that we can never solve our problems, so we should just forget it? No one here is suggesting that the solution rests with bettering the education of only minorities. Everyone who has made a suggestion, has put forth the idea that we need to better the education of EVERYONE. "Setting up kids early . . ." for this stuff is EXACTLY what everyone is suggesting.
- tiffani 17y ago
  On the contrary, my comment definitely didn't say anything about improving only the education of minorities and I definitely didn't say "just forget it." The article is about minorities, though, is it not? And I think, implicitly, the article points at the idea that we do have to address minority education (especially in the greater context of educating everybody) if we want more minority scientists and engineers. My own experience points in that direction and if we could talk to the folks in the article, I'm sure they'd say the same. I mentioned how the article doesn't necessarily highlight anything new and that it's a problem everybody's facing. Sure, my comment mentioned minority education, but in no way was I insinuating that we only should care about just educating minorities now. That's a torrid oversimplification (and misrepresentation) of anything I said above.
  - bilbo0s 17y ago
    So . . . uhh . . . What is your suggested solution? Not trying to piss you off. I just think we have a lot of people in this country who point out all sorts of shortcomings, but do not offer potential solutions. You've still not told us how you would address minority education. Most people seem to fall into the wsprague camp. You have not stated anything, other than the problem.
    - tiffani 17y ago
      Nope, not pissed off at all. What can we do, though? - Change attitudes of kids. We can't continue on this trend where being smart is considered "acting white." Surprisingly, I never got much of that back in grade school because for some reason or another being smart was respectable (and no, I've never been to a private school). That's always been weird in seeing it, though, because I've seen it in little kids. What the heck is a 7 year old supposed to know about "acting white"? In that same vein, we should talk about parents (that kind of thought process had to start somewhere). - Change attitudes of parents. A lot of parents need to be more involved. I've seen parents who didn't do so much as to even make sure their kid did his/her homework because the parent didn't know how to do it (among other reasons that are less easy to alleviate such as work schedules). The kids at the elementary school that day confirmed it. There's a big difference between knowing how to do your kid's homework and making sure they at least attempt it. No, my parents had no clue how to do my calculus homework when I was in high school, but they made sure I was doing it, though. - Make mincemeat of self-fulfilling prophecies. I think a lot of what happens with black kids and other minorities (some friends have been walking examples of this) is more of a cyclic self-fulfilling prophecy kind of thing. Nobody around you is doing all that well, nobody around you is really perceived as being all that smart, and so hey, why try to prove anybody wrong? Yes, as crazy as that sounds, years ago I could have listed numerous people who had that exact self-defeating attitude. Obviously, that's not the case for everybody, but it's an attitude more common than a lot of people like to acknowledge. :( In mentioning the self-fulfilling prophecy idea, that means you' d have to get parents more interested in what their kids were doing at school (and immediately afterschool in a lot of instances); teachers who don't give up easily on minority students (or any student for that matter); and finally, minority students who see education less as a burden of some sort and more of a ticket to a better standard of living. - Flat out expect more. Indeed this does go the @wsprague route, but there's a ring of truth to what s/he is saying. I look at what Steve Perry up in Connecticut is doing. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/bia.education.success/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/bia.education.success/i...) He expects more out of his students (and teachers) and they rise to the occasion. The school has a "near-zero dropout rate" and all the graduates go to college. I don't have any stats on what they end up majoring in, but at least they're set up to go to college. - Show kids they have options, keep kids informed of them, and encourage them to pursue them. The article with Steve Perry mentions it and I saw it firsthand in high school--minority students getting shuffled into less demanding classes (no AP!) thanks to stereotypes and not having the wherewithal to set themselves up for a more demanding schedule. A lot of kids don't know about the kinds of classes that would set them up to go to college and pursue anything of rigor. Having a guidance counselor offer you a culinary arts course instead of an AP Biology course makes a big difference if you don't know what you could be missing by not taking that AP class. - Educational parity. I witnessed my calculus teacher from high school leave my high school for a more affluent high school. Yes, she has more students at that high school, but if you've got a brain drain on a school level, you're going to have it at some point on a county then state then national level. If all the great teachers are clustered at certain schools (and school systems allow this), what happens to the other schools? I seriously don't have all the answers, but changing the attitudes (about a lot of things) of parents, teachers, and students seems to be a big part of it all. If I'd had a crappy attitude about anything I'd encountered intellectually for the last 5-10 years, I doubt I'd be here.

by tiffani 17y ago

bilbo0s 17y ago

So . . . uhhh . . . What is your suggested solution. Or are you just telling us that we can never solve our problems, so we should just forget it? No one here is suggesting that the solution rests with bettering the education of only minorities. Everyone who has made a suggestion, has put forth the idea that we need to better the education of EVERYONE. "Setting up kids early . . ." for this stuff is EXACTLY what everyone is suggesting.

tiffani 17y ago
On the contrary, my comment definitely didn't say anything about improving only the education of minorities and I definitely didn't say "just forget it." The article is about minorities, though, is it not? And I think, implicitly, the article points at the idea that we do have to address minority education (especially in the greater context of educating everybody) if we want more minority scientists and engineers. My own experience points in that direction and if we could talk to the folks in the article, I'm sure they'd say the same. I mentioned how the article doesn't necessarily highlight anything new and that it's a problem everybody's facing. Sure, my comment mentioned minority education, but in no way was I insinuating that we only should care about just educating minorities now. That's a torrid oversimplification (and misrepresentation) of anything I said above.
- bilbo0s 17y ago
  So . . . uhh . . . What is your suggested solution? Not trying to piss you off. I just think we have a lot of people in this country who point out all sorts of shortcomings, but do not offer potential solutions. You've still not told us how you would address minority education. Most people seem to fall into the wsprague camp. You have not stated anything, other than the problem.
  - tiffani 17y ago
    Nope, not pissed off at all. What can we do, though? - Change attitudes of kids. We can't continue on this trend where being smart is considered "acting white." Surprisingly, I never got much of that back in grade school because for some reason or another being smart was respectable (and no, I've never been to a private school). That's always been weird in seeing it, though, because I've seen it in little kids. What the heck is a 7 year old supposed to know about "acting white"? In that same vein, we should talk about parents (that kind of thought process had to start somewhere). - Change attitudes of parents. A lot of parents need to be more involved. I've seen parents who didn't do so much as to even make sure their kid did his/her homework because the parent didn't know how to do it (among other reasons that are less easy to alleviate such as work schedules). The kids at the elementary school that day confirmed it. There's a big difference between knowing how to do your kid's homework and making sure they at least attempt it. No, my parents had no clue how to do my calculus homework when I was in high school, but they made sure I was doing it, though. - Make mincemeat of self-fulfilling prophecies. I think a lot of what happens with black kids and other minorities (some friends have been walking examples of this) is more of a cyclic self-fulfilling prophecy kind of thing. Nobody around you is doing all that well, nobody around you is really perceived as being all that smart, and so hey, why try to prove anybody wrong? Yes, as crazy as that sounds, years ago I could have listed numerous people who had that exact self-defeating attitude. Obviously, that's not the case for everybody, but it's an attitude more common than a lot of people like to acknowledge. :( In mentioning the self-fulfilling prophecy idea, that means you' d have to get parents more interested in what their kids were doing at school (and immediately afterschool in a lot of instances); teachers who don't give up easily on minority students (or any student for that matter); and finally, minority students who see education less as a burden of some sort and more of a ticket to a better standard of living. - Flat out expect more. Indeed this does go the @wsprague route, but there's a ring of truth to what s/he is saying. I look at what Steve Perry up in Connecticut is doing. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/bia.education.success/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/bia.education.success/i...) He expects more out of his students (and teachers) and they rise to the occasion. The school has a "near-zero dropout rate" and all the graduates go to college. I don't have any stats on what they end up majoring in, but at least they're set up to go to college. - Show kids they have options, keep kids informed of them, and encourage them to pursue them. The article with Steve Perry mentions it and I saw it firsthand in high school--minority students getting shuffled into less demanding classes (no AP!) thanks to stereotypes and not having the wherewithal to set themselves up for a more demanding schedule. A lot of kids don't know about the kinds of classes that would set them up to go to college and pursue anything of rigor. Having a guidance counselor offer you a culinary arts course instead of an AP Biology course makes a big difference if you don't know what you could be missing by not taking that AP class. - Educational parity. I witnessed my calculus teacher from high school leave my high school for a more affluent high school. Yes, she has more students at that high school, but if you've got a brain drain on a school level, you're going to have it at some point on a county then state then national level. If all the great teachers are clustered at certain schools (and school systems allow this), what happens to the other schools? I seriously don't have all the answers, but changing the attitudes (about a lot of things) of parents, teachers, and students seems to be a big part of it all. If I'd had a crappy attitude about anything I'd encountered intellectually for the last 5-10 years, I doubt I'd be here.