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I'm not saying that you're worthless. I'm just not sure you're alive by strict standards. I'm not sure I will be - in fifteen years. So now you think that I've

I'm not saying that you're worthless. I'm just not sure you're alive by strict standards. I'm not sure I will be - in fifteen years. So now you think that I've "labeled" 1000 - 1 to be less than 1000? So much for math.

dllthomas 12y ago
Even without passing on your own genes directly, you can: 1) help make sure those copies of your genes in others survive (help out relatives who did reproduce) - evolutionarily, this is equivalent to reproducing, if slightly attenuated; and 2) have a lasting memetic impact. And that's if you're focused only on the long term, which you seem to be - there's plenty more shorter term reasons to be alive.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Just to chase down this train of thought a little more: there are lots of ways to benefit your clan (and therefore some of your genes) without reproducing. Look at bees and termites, where the vast majority of them never reproduce, yet the queen is driven to produce them because they help the colony survive. That's selection too. Or how about a gene that drives non-reproductive young males to be restless, jump on a horse and ride over the horizon on a whim. Sometimes they come back, say "There's buffalo over there!" and the whole tribe benefits. That's selected for too.
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    Sad thing is, I don't have a clan. I don't have a beehive, a community. So it seems that the only way for me to "keep the money in the bank" is reproduce physically. That's why nuclear family is called nuclear. And today we often have "subnuclear" people without any strong bonds. If I had a kind of clan, the situatiou would be different.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      So if we take as given that you're going to be focused on the evolutionary component, if you can no longer reproduce then walk up your family tree until you find your closest relative with progeny. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection#Hamilton.27s_rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection#Hamilton.27s_rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness
      - guard-of-terra 12y ago
        I'm not a walking set of genes. I'm a human being. What if I don't feel that my "closest relative with progeny" is in any way related to me? I don't care about inclusive fitness. Let the nature do that trick. I care about reproducing something resembling of myself. If my nearest genetic relatives don't resemble myself in any way, I don't care if they reproduce.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        "I'm not a walking set of genes. I'm a human being." Certainly. But then I'd say that a huge portion of what makes you you is not genetic at all, and like I said much earlier you can always pass on memes.
        guard-of-terra 12y ago
        I can't reliably pass on memes because I don't have a clan. I'm a lone nation of one (well, two, anyway), and this nation is going to disappear once we die. I can give memes to other unrelated people but I don't know whether they use those for good.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        You don't know that your children will "use those for good" either. Focus on spreading memes that promote doing good, however you define "doing good".
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    Most of that is accurate, but careful you don't drift into group selection, which (as I understand it) isn't well supported by the available evidence. To be selected for, a trait needs to differentially increase the likelihood that genes for that trait are passed on, so there needs to be a sufficiently close relationship that the person being benefited is likely to share the gene responsible for the help (or greater effectiveness of the help, or...). Of course, there is another leap from "X causes a trait to be selected for" to "we should individually be valuing X", but guard-of-terra seems to be thinking in those terms to begin with (and others have questioned that point).
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Well, other than bees and termites I guess? What is that but group selection.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        Due to inbreeding, termites are more closely related to their siblings than to their children. You can approximate it as group selection, but it's not a separate thing that's going on - it can be reduced to selection on individual genes.

dllthomas 12y ago

Even without passing on your own genes directly, you can: 1) help make sure those copies of your genes in others survive (help out relatives who did reproduce) - evolutionarily, this is equivalent to reproducing, if slightly attenuated; and 2) have a lasting memetic impact. And that's if you're focused only on the long term, which you seem to be - there's plenty more shorter term reasons to be alive.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Just to chase down this train of thought a little more: there are lots of ways to benefit your clan (and therefore some of your genes) without reproducing. Look at bees and termites, where the vast majority of them never reproduce, yet the queen is driven to produce them because they help the colony survive. That's selection too. Or how about a gene that drives non-reproductive young males to be restless, jump on a horse and ride over the horizon on a whim. Sometimes they come back, say "There's buffalo over there!" and the whole tribe benefits. That's selected for too.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  Sad thing is, I don't have a clan. I don't have a beehive, a community. So it seems that the only way for me to "keep the money in the bank" is reproduce physically. That's why nuclear family is called nuclear. And today we often have "subnuclear" people without any strong bonds. If I had a kind of clan, the situatiou would be different.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    So if we take as given that you're going to be focused on the evolutionary component, if you can no longer reproduce then walk up your family tree until you find your closest relative with progeny. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection#Hamilton.27s_rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection#Hamilton.27s_rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      I'm not a walking set of genes. I'm a human being. What if I don't feel that my "closest relative with progeny" is in any way related to me? I don't care about inclusive fitness. Let the nature do that trick. I care about reproducing something resembling of myself. If my nearest genetic relatives don't resemble myself in any way, I don't care if they reproduce.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        "I'm not a walking set of genes. I'm a human being." Certainly. But then I'd say that a huge portion of what makes you you is not genetic at all, and like I said much earlier you can always pass on memes.
        guard-of-terra 12y ago
        I can't reliably pass on memes because I don't have a clan. I'm a lone nation of one (well, two, anyway), and this nation is going to disappear once we die. I can give memes to other unrelated people but I don't know whether they use those for good.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        You don't know that your children will "use those for good" either. Focus on spreading memes that promote doing good, however you define "doing good".
- dllthomas 12y ago
  Most of that is accurate, but careful you don't drift into group selection, which (as I understand it) isn't well supported by the available evidence. To be selected for, a trait needs to differentially increase the likelihood that genes for that trait are passed on, so there needs to be a sufficiently close relationship that the person being benefited is likely to share the gene responsible for the help (or greater effectiveness of the help, or...). Of course, there is another leap from "X causes a trait to be selected for" to "we should individually be valuing X", but guard-of-terra seems to be thinking in those terms to begin with (and others have questioned that point).
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Well, other than bees and termites I guess? What is that but group selection.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      Due to inbreeding, termites are more closely related to their siblings than to their children. You can approximate it as group selection, but it's not a separate thing that's going on - it can be reduced to selection on individual genes.