4 ms·

I really don't get this issue. It's one thing if you present as your non-biological gender full-time. (Transgender, transvestite, etc.) TBH, I haven't been fo

by jonah 12y ago

I really don't get this issue. It's one thing if you present as your non-biological gender full-time. (Transgender, transvestite, etc.) TBH, I haven't been following it closely, but this current issue seems to be about Drag personas. Totally different. If you're John Smith at your desk job and Sister Roma on Saturday Nights, that's a persona. Same as if I did standup as "The Science Guy". Setup a business page for that persona or whatever. (Unless you're going to allow anyone to setup any accounts they want to.)

Smudge 12y ago
drag personas != standup personas, unless you're promoting your drag identity as a business (?) I'd equate it more to simply having multiple identities. Some people know you as John Smith. Others know you as Sister Roma. When they try to find you on Facebook, maybe you don't want the two linked in any way. Why should John Smith be managing a business page called "Sister Roma" (or vice versa)?
muglug 12y ago
Not just about drag personas – it's also about people who might be transitioning, but haven't legally changed their name yet. It's about being able to choose how you appear to your friends, which is something that's perfectly acceptable to do socially (at least in progressive parts of the US).
- jonah 12y ago
  Yes, as my comment said.
akbar501 12y ago
The core of the issue is discrimination, threats of violence, and so on. A comic would not face discrimination, attacks, etc. while the people affected by this FB policy could/would be affected negatively. IMO, this is a key difference.
SwellJoe 12y ago
As a (presumably) gender-normative person, you can't be expected to "get this issue". But, hopefully, with a bit more knowledge you'll begin to get it and understand why it matters, and can genuinely put people in danger. There are many parts of the world, including in the United States, where hate crimes against transgendered people are common. This includes cities that we like to think of as progressive and gay friendly. Trans people have been beaten, and even murdered, simply for being trans. So, to be trans in the US, and in many other places, is to live in fear that the wrong person will discover your identity, where you live, etc. Further, drag personas may very well be the primary social identity of a person. Their friends know them by this name and identity, and may not know of any other. But, when they go to work, go shopping, etc., they may have very different persona that they keep separate from their social identity for their own safety and well-being. People can still lose their jobs for being trans. Trans people can be, and often are, treated very poorly by medical practitioners (particularly poor folks who have fewer options for their medical care). Trans people can be treated very poorly by the legal system in child custody cases. Likewise, trans people arrested for crimes often receive stiffer sentences than non-trans folks, and may experience discrimination and humiliation in the prison system. It is dangerous, on so many levels, to be openly trans. Transgender is recognized to be a real thing, and not a "disorder", by every major psychological and medical organization in the developed world. But, the popular opinion has not caught up with the science. And, so people who are trans have significant hurdles to leading a happy life free of being bullied, preyed upon, and generally having a lot more challenges than folks who identify as the sex of the body they were born with. In short, saying, "Setup a business page for that persona or whatever." ignores the reality that trans people live with every day. Revealing that one is trans to the world at large dramatically increases the risk of being trans. It sucks that our world and society is this way. Someone should be able to dress up fancy on a Saturday night, without fear of being beaten for it, fired from their job, risk losing custody of children, or be denied appropriate medical care. But, we don't live in a world where that's true. Those are the realities of being one of the most hated minorities. Facebook's policy made it harder for trans people to exist in peace. So, the apology is warranted, and the clarification of the policy is useful. Though, I think it probably doesn't go far enough. And, I think their reasons for being so insistent have as much to do with the value of knowing someone's legal identity, as it does with their assertion that it is the "primary mechanism we have to protect millions of people every day, all around the world, from real harm."
autism_hurts 12y ago
Of course this is the top comment on this topic. Of course. Bravo, HN.
epochwolf 12y ago
> Setup a business page for that persona or whatever. Yeah... this doesn't work very well. I'm not transgendered or gay but I have a fairly weird hobby that has some parallels. I dress up in an animal costume on the weekends. My primary social identity is Epoch Wolf. Most of my friends (100+ people I'm in regular contact with) know me as such. I actually answer better to "Epoch" than my real name. Facebook forces me to use my real name. My Epoch Wolf account was banned years ago. Because of this, my family, my church, and my coworkers have seen pictures of me dressed up as a pink lynx at a furry convention. I don't have the option of not using facebook. If I want to keep in contact with my friends OR MY CHURCH, I need to use it. Church events are only posted on facebook! The only reason this is tolerable is: * I have a lot of self-confidence. * I am a straight, white, cis-gendered male with a college degree working a white collar job. * I have an excellent relationship with my parents. * My pastor has been to anime conventions. * My coworkers are younger people who also have their own weird hobbies. * I don't partake in the sexual aspects of furry fandom that the media and 4chan like to make a big deal about. Because me dressing up in animal costumes is the only weird thing I do, I can get away with it. Everyone I know sees me as a normal person with a weird hobby. Far too many of my friends have been severely judged by their parents or churches for being gay or having a weird hobby. Some of them have been kicked out by their parents and others live with constant emotional abuse and struggle with crippling depression. Sorry, this got a little rambly. If I had more time I would write a shorter letter, etc. Anyway, it takes a lot of things going for you to be able to openly participate in a sub-culture that's not well looked upon and having that being dismissed so lightly irritates me to no end.
- jonah 12y ago
  I hear you and agree. I think what rubs me the wrong way[1] about this issue is treating (or appearing to treat) certain classes of people/needs differently. If drag queens can have personas, but furries can't, that's not cool. If the push by the LGBTQ* community to win this accommodation for drag queens and trans* folks relaxes the rules for other groups at the same time, that's a good outcome. [1] Afterwards: Oops, no furry pun intended.

by jonah 12y ago

Smudge 12y ago

drag personas != standup personas, unless you're promoting your drag identity as a business (?) I'd equate it more to simply having multiple identities. Some people know you as John Smith. Others know you as Sister Roma. When they try to find you on Facebook, maybe you don't want the two linked in any way. Why should John Smith be managing a business page called "Sister Roma" (or vice versa)?

muglug 12y ago

Not just about drag personas – it's also about people who might be transitioning, but haven't legally changed their name yet. It's about being able to choose how you appear to your friends, which is something that's perfectly acceptable to do socially (at least in progressive parts of the US).

jonah 12y ago
Yes, as my comment said.

akbar501 12y ago

The core of the issue is discrimination, threats of violence, and so on. A comic would not face discrimination, attacks, etc. while the people affected by this FB policy could/would be affected negatively. IMO, this is a key difference.

SwellJoe 12y ago

As a (presumably) gender-normative person, you can't be expected to "get this issue". But, hopefully, with a bit more knowledge you'll begin to get it and understand why it matters, and can genuinely put people in danger. There are many parts of the world, including in the United States, where hate crimes against transgendered people are common. This includes cities that we like to think of as progressive and gay friendly. Trans people have been beaten, and even murdered, simply for being trans. So, to be trans in the US, and in many other places, is to live in fear that the wrong person will discover your identity, where you live, etc. Further, drag personas may very well be the primary social identity of a person. Their friends know them by this name and identity, and may not know of any other. But, when they go to work, go shopping, etc., they may have very different persona that they keep separate from their social identity for their own safety and well-being. People can still lose their jobs for being trans. Trans people can be, and often are, treated very poorly by medical practitioners (particularly poor folks who have fewer options for their medical care). Trans people can be treated very poorly by the legal system in child custody cases. Likewise, trans people arrested for crimes often receive stiffer sentences than non-trans folks, and may experience discrimination and humiliation in the prison system. It is dangerous, on so many levels, to be openly trans. Transgender is recognized to be a real thing, and not a "disorder", by every major psychological and medical organization in the developed world. But, the popular opinion has not caught up with the science. And, so people who are trans have significant hurdles to leading a happy life free of being bullied, preyed upon, and generally having a lot more challenges than folks who identify as the sex of the body they were born with. In short, saying, "Setup a business page for that persona or whatever." ignores the reality that trans people live with every day. Revealing that one is trans to the world at large dramatically increases the risk of being trans. It sucks that our world and society is this way. Someone should be able to dress up fancy on a Saturday night, without fear of being beaten for it, fired from their job, risk losing custody of children, or be denied appropriate medical care. But, we don't live in a world where that's true. Those are the realities of being one of the most hated minorities. Facebook's policy made it harder for trans people to exist in peace. So, the apology is warranted, and the clarification of the policy is useful. Though, I think it probably doesn't go far enough. And, I think their reasons for being so insistent have as much to do with the value of knowing someone's legal identity, as it does with their assertion that it is the "primary mechanism we have to protect millions of people every day, all around the world, from real harm."

autism_hurts 12y ago

Of course this is the top comment on this topic. Of course. Bravo, HN.

epochwolf 12y ago

> Setup a business page for that persona or whatever. Yeah... this doesn't work very well. I'm not transgendered or gay but I have a fairly weird hobby that has some parallels. I dress up in an animal costume on the weekends. My primary social identity is Epoch Wolf. Most of my friends (100+ people I'm in regular contact with) know me as such. I actually answer better to "Epoch" than my real name. Facebook forces me to use my real name. My Epoch Wolf account was banned years ago. Because of this, my family, my church, and my coworkers have seen pictures of me dressed up as a pink lynx at a furry convention. I don't have the option of not using facebook. If I want to keep in contact with my friends OR MY CHURCH, I need to use it. Church events are only posted on facebook! The only reason this is tolerable is: * I have a lot of self-confidence. * I am a straight, white, cis-gendered male with a college degree working a white collar job. * I have an excellent relationship with my parents. * My pastor has been to anime conventions. * My coworkers are younger people who also have their own weird hobbies. * I don't partake in the sexual aspects of furry fandom that the media and 4chan like to make a big deal about. Because me dressing up in animal costumes is the only weird thing I do, I can get away with it. Everyone I know sees me as a normal person with a weird hobby. Far too many of my friends have been severely judged by their parents or churches for being gay or having a weird hobby. Some of them have been kicked out by their parents and others live with constant emotional abuse and struggle with crippling depression. Sorry, this got a little rambly. If I had more time I would write a shorter letter, etc. Anyway, it takes a lot of things going for you to be able to openly participate in a sub-culture that's not well looked upon and having that being dismissed so lightly irritates me to no end.

jonah 12y ago
I hear you and agree. I think what rubs me the wrong way[1] about this issue is treating (or appearing to treat) certain classes of people/needs differently. If drag queens can have personas, but furries can't, that's not cool. If the push by the LGBTQ* community to win this accommodation for drag queens and trans* folks relaxes the rules for other groups at the same time, that's a good outcome. [1] Afterwards: Oops, no furry pun intended.