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Doing powerful things with spreadsheets involves a similar amount of difficulty/learning as hacking some Python.

jamii 12y ago
But doing simple things with spreadsheets is a hell of a lot easier than doing simple things with python. Learning curves are important because most people will never get to the powerful things if they get frustrated and give up on the simple things.
- p1esk 12y ago
  Actually, for me, doing simple things with Python is more intuitive than doing simple things with Excel.
  - joshdance 12y ago
    You and I read hacker news. We are not normal. :)
    - p1esk 12y ago
      Maybe, but try adding 2 numbers. In Python, I can just type 3 + 4 and hit Enter, in Excel, it's significantly less intuitive.
      - marvy 12y ago
        You type =3+4 instead. Surely an extra equal sign is not a big deal?
crimsonalucard 12y ago
Programming languages tend to be geared toward coercing the user to abstract data into symbols. Spreadsheets are the other way around being more focused on keeping the data in front of your face as a table. Data can be a complex thing to understand. By forcing data to be explicitly displayed in tables, users no longer need to "read source code" as just a casual glance at a chart or a table leads to significant comprehension about what's going on.
scott_s 12y ago
Maybe. But the key difference is that those who "program" spreadsheets can see all of the steps involved. The hardest part about programming is constructing and executing a model of the computation in your head. Spreadsheets help with exactly that, by making a 1-to-1 association between steps of the computation, and things in front of you.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > But the key difference is that those who "program" spreadsheets can see all of the steps involved. I would say that that's almost precisely backwards: compared to typical plain-text code, spreadsheets make intermediate results more obvious, while obscuring the steps. (Things like, e.g., scala worksheets or ipython notebooks bridge this gap in a way which makes both the steps and the results clear.)
  - scott_s 12y ago
    Yes, I'll agree with that. Users have to poke at the data cell to see what the formula is there - and it's easy to not do this, and be confused why the results are coming out wrong.

jamii 12y ago

But doing simple things with spreadsheets is a hell of a lot easier than doing simple things with python. Learning curves are important because most people will never get to the powerful things if they get frustrated and give up on the simple things.

p1esk 12y ago
Actually, for me, doing simple things with Python is more intuitive than doing simple things with Excel.
- joshdance 12y ago
  You and I read hacker news. We are not normal. :)
  - p1esk 12y ago
    Maybe, but try adding 2 numbers. In Python, I can just type 3 + 4 and hit Enter, in Excel, it's significantly less intuitive.
    - marvy 12y ago
      You type =3+4 instead. Surely an extra equal sign is not a big deal?

crimsonalucard 12y ago

Programming languages tend to be geared toward coercing the user to abstract data into symbols. Spreadsheets are the other way around being more focused on keeping the data in front of your face as a table. Data can be a complex thing to understand. By forcing data to be explicitly displayed in tables, users no longer need to "read source code" as just a casual glance at a chart or a table leads to significant comprehension about what's going on.

scott_s 12y ago

Maybe. But the key difference is that those who "program" spreadsheets can see all of the steps involved. The hardest part about programming is constructing and executing a model of the computation in your head. Spreadsheets help with exactly that, by making a 1-to-1 association between steps of the computation, and things in front of you.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> But the key difference is that those who "program" spreadsheets can see all of the steps involved. I would say that that's almost precisely backwards: compared to typical plain-text code, spreadsheets make intermediate results more obvious, while obscuring the steps. (Things like, e.g., scala worksheets or ipython notebooks bridge this gap in a way which makes both the steps and the results clear.)
- scott_s 12y ago
  Yes, I'll agree with that. Users have to poke at the data cell to see what the formula is there - and it's easy to not do this, and be confused why the results are coming out wrong.