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Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse tha

Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse than the US, but there seems to be no agreement on that). However, as far as education is concerned, it would be wrong to blame universities. The German school system is very stratified, "locking in" a child's destiny at a young age. Via parents who understand this and fight tooth and nail to get their child into the highest tier of the school system, it leads to high correlation between parents' and children's academic achievements.

yodsanklai 12y ago
Social mobility is very low in France as well and education is pretty much free.
- levosmetalo 12y ago
  Social mobility is low everywhere in the world, and education is just one small factor so it's not easy to find a correlation there without looking at the bigger picture.
  - sprash 12y ago
    Maybe social mobility is low everywhere because smart parents breed smart kids. But considering genetics is deemed to be politically incorrect.
    - istjohn 12y ago
      It's only politically incorrect when it's used as an excuse to ignore legitimate social issues as you've done here.
    - bitkrieg 12y ago
      Because it's not the genes but the social environment which shapes the individual's progress in a society.
      - wolfgke 12y ago
        [Citation needed]
- richthegeek 12y ago
  I was under the impression that in France their universities are operated in similar manner and number as their high schools. Combined with funding based only on the number of students provided by the govt. the quality in education possibly doesn't differ enough to provide any effect on social mobility.
- MrBuddyCasino 12y ago
  Well the french elite is commonly described as being a pretty incestuous affair. There a few elite schools, and the countries top politicians and industry leaders are all recruited from there. Not saying they are worse than the german system, but certainly not better.
- daviddumenil 12y ago
  France has relatively high Social Mobility. http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-mobility-data-charts http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-...
  - FractalNerve 12y ago
    Excuse my stupid question, but what does social mobility mean? [serious]
    - junto 12y ago
      Quite simply: The ability to move between social classes. Social mobility is the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to others' social location within a given society. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
Kurtz79 12y ago
Very low compared to what ? I would say that is lower compared to Scandinavian countries but generally high. From Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg/300px-Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Soc...
- ordinary 12y ago
  Bigger version: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Social_m...
- mcv 12y ago
  According to that graph, social mobility in Germany isn't lower than Scandinavia at all. It's lower than Denmark and Finland, but comparable to Sweden and Norway. Income inequality is higher, though.
this_user 12y ago
Social mobility is low that is a well-documented fact, but I disagree with blaming the educational system for that. There are always paths to work your way up in the system even if you were not always in the highest tier. I personally know several people who did it that way. There are more than enough high-profile examples e.g. former Chancellor Schröder who started with a retail apprenticeship, then passed his Abitur, got his law degree, then became Prime Minister of Lower Saxony and eventually Chancellor. My point is that there is always a way to advance if you have the brains and the drive to do it. In addition to that you can easily receive financial support from the German state if your family is unable to pay for your desired education. I don't think the system can do much more as it already offers all the opportunities you could hope for. So this then leads to the question of why social mobility is still low despite all of this. Possibly it has more to do with the people's general mindset. Parents with academic degrees are likely going to push their children in the same direction. Parents without a degree, on the other hand, may very well tell their children that an apprenticeship has served them just fine and that there is no need to get an academic degree. This, I think, is the big difference. In the US there is this idea of advancing and making more of yourself (even if that has become more difficult, but that's not the point here) while German society is much more static. I think this is the real reason for low social mobility that people are simply not that driven to chance their circumstances and not even free education and financial support can change that.
- gress 12y ago
  "There are always paths to work your way up in the system even if you were not always in the highest tier." Your argument seems to be that since there are some people have moved between social tiers, anyone can move between social tiers if they choose the right strategy. This is a plain fallacy.
lispm 12y ago
There are a lot of paths to Universities. What the German education system recognizes is this: not everyone needs to go to university. There are lots of other satisfying career paths.
- 0xFFC 12y ago
  personally I don't think universities is only for career ! people get more socialize ! get more experience ! and get more mature.
  - mhaymo 12y ago
    The same can be said of almost anything that young adults do. Entering the working world is certainly a maturing experience, and I don't necessarily believe that 4 years of higher education is better in that than 4 years of labour.
  - watwut 12y ago
    You can socialize and mature on the job too. I dislike this idea of University being some theme park for young adults where they can pretend they need some more maturing before they will become real adults. Nobody is giving slack to kids who did not managed to get to college. They are expected to be mature. I'm pretty sure college students are as capable as them.
    - lotsofcows 12y ago
      There is an element of that. University tends to throw you into a group of people from different backgrounds (at least, compared to school) and forces you to live fairly intimately with them.
digikata 12y ago
Social mobility may be low, but is the range of social/income disparity as high as in the US?
- gbrindisi 12y ago
  http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gini+index+germany+usa http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gini+index+germany+usa
walshemj 12y ago
And until recently get sorted onto the vocational track in Germany and you were radically limited on where your career could take you.

yodsanklai 12y ago

Social mobility is very low in France as well and education is pretty much free.

levosmetalo 12y ago
Social mobility is low everywhere in the world, and education is just one small factor so it's not easy to find a correlation there without looking at the bigger picture.
- sprash 12y ago
  Maybe social mobility is low everywhere because smart parents breed smart kids. But considering genetics is deemed to be politically incorrect.
  - istjohn 12y ago
    It's only politically incorrect when it's used as an excuse to ignore legitimate social issues as you've done here.
  - bitkrieg 12y ago
    Because it's not the genes but the social environment which shapes the individual's progress in a society.
    - wolfgke 12y ago
      [Citation needed]
richthegeek 12y ago
I was under the impression that in France their universities are operated in similar manner and number as their high schools. Combined with funding based only on the number of students provided by the govt. the quality in education possibly doesn't differ enough to provide any effect on social mobility.
MrBuddyCasino 12y ago
Well the french elite is commonly described as being a pretty incestuous affair. There a few elite schools, and the countries top politicians and industry leaders are all recruited from there. Not saying they are worse than the german system, but certainly not better.
daviddumenil 12y ago
France has relatively high Social Mobility. http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-mobility-data-charts http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-...
- FractalNerve 12y ago
  Excuse my stupid question, but what does social mobility mean? [serious]
  - junto 12y ago
    Quite simply: The ability to move between social classes. Social mobility is the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to others' social location within a given society. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

Kurtz79 12y ago

Very low compared to what ? I would say that is lower compared to Scandinavian countries but generally high. From Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg/300px-Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Soc...

ordinary 12y ago
Bigger version: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Social_mobility_is_lower_in_more_unequal_countries.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Social_m...
mcv 12y ago
According to that graph, social mobility in Germany isn't lower than Scandinavia at all. It's lower than Denmark and Finland, but comparable to Sweden and Norway. Income inequality is higher, though.

this_user 12y ago

Social mobility is low that is a well-documented fact, but I disagree with blaming the educational system for that. There are always paths to work your way up in the system even if you were not always in the highest tier. I personally know several people who did it that way. There are more than enough high-profile examples e.g. former Chancellor Schröder who started with a retail apprenticeship, then passed his Abitur, got his law degree, then became Prime Minister of Lower Saxony and eventually Chancellor. My point is that there is always a way to advance if you have the brains and the drive to do it. In addition to that you can easily receive financial support from the German state if your family is unable to pay for your desired education. I don't think the system can do much more as it already offers all the opportunities you could hope for. So this then leads to the question of why social mobility is still low despite all of this. Possibly it has more to do with the people's general mindset. Parents with academic degrees are likely going to push their children in the same direction. Parents without a degree, on the other hand, may very well tell their children that an apprenticeship has served them just fine and that there is no need to get an academic degree. This, I think, is the big difference. In the US there is this idea of advancing and making more of yourself (even if that has become more difficult, but that's not the point here) while German society is much more static. I think this is the real reason for low social mobility that people are simply not that driven to chance their circumstances and not even free education and financial support can change that.

gress 12y ago
"There are always paths to work your way up in the system even if you were not always in the highest tier." Your argument seems to be that since there are some people have moved between social tiers, anyone can move between social tiers if they choose the right strategy. This is a plain fallacy.

lispm 12y ago

There are a lot of paths to Universities. What the German education system recognizes is this: not everyone needs to go to university. There are lots of other satisfying career paths.

0xFFC 12y ago
personally I don't think universities is only for career ! people get more socialize ! get more experience ! and get more mature.
- mhaymo 12y ago
  The same can be said of almost anything that young adults do. Entering the working world is certainly a maturing experience, and I don't necessarily believe that 4 years of higher education is better in that than 4 years of labour.
- watwut 12y ago
  You can socialize and mature on the job too. I dislike this idea of University being some theme park for young adults where they can pretend they need some more maturing before they will become real adults. Nobody is giving slack to kids who did not managed to get to college. They are expected to be mature. I'm pretty sure college students are as capable as them.
  - lotsofcows 12y ago
    There is an element of that. University tends to throw you into a group of people from different backgrounds (at least, compared to school) and forces you to live fairly intimately with them.

digikata 12y ago

Social mobility may be low, but is the range of social/income disparity as high as in the US?

gbrindisi 12y ago
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gini+index+germany+usa http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gini+index+germany+usa

walshemj 12y ago

And until recently get sorted onto the vocational track in Germany and you were radically limited on where your career could take you.