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They ever showed the officers letters saying that they were operation a coworking space which is similar to an internet cafe, and that no one here is working fo

They ever showed the officers letters saying that they were operation a coworking space which is similar to an internet cafe, and that no one here is working for a Thai company or making Thai wages, meaning they are not taking Thai jobs or working illegally. Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind of thing. If you're earning money in Thailand then you need all the right permits and paperwork. It doesn't matter if you're not working for a Thai company or doing business in Thailand. They've let this kind of thing slide for a long time but the new junta is cracking down hard on all kinds of visa violations. Those of us in Vietnam and Cambodia are expecting an influx of Thai expat refugees.

guard-of-terra 12y ago
That's a stupid thing to do. I know from podcasts that there are Russian companies who let their Russian developers stay in Thailand on a business visa, developing their product for Russian audience. What does Thailand gains by scaring those people? After all they spend a lot of their wage money there. What's the downside?
- curiouscats 12y ago
  Yes it would be unwise. The authorities let everyone go once they figure out what was going on - they seemed to think the people were employees of the cafe... The policy is fairly straightforward, but letting people do "digital nomad" work while trying to stop those taking jobs in a country isn't so easy. A bunch of countries in SE Asia seem to have economic development people in favor of attracting these people to their country. But coordinating with the immigration enforcement authorities isn't very well developed (given the systems in place this isn't an easy problem it will likely be messy for awhile). And if long term visitors are seen as negative (often for acting out and making asses of themselves) this can lead to crackdowns. A few jerks are very noticeable, so a large community of good visitors can be seen as a negative based on just a few bad actors.
- riffraff 12y ago
  thinking as a thai junta member: if you want to stay here, and work here, please be kind enough as to pay 40% of your wage in taxes rather than spend 5% on fried rice.
  - Mikushi 12y ago
    But that's the thing, it's 2014, it's not working there, it's working on the internet, which is everywhere. Laws need to change to accommodate telecommuting workers, no way I would pay my taxes twice.
    - lucian1900 12y ago
      Why would you pay them twice? Pay them once, in the country you actually live in.
      - hluska 12y ago
        These are called tax treaties - each individual treaty has some different rules regarding where incomes are earned and where taxes are owning. As an example, here is one between Thailand and Canada: http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/thailand_-eng.asp http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/thailand_-eng.asp
        nilsimsa 12y ago
        As I understand it, the US is the only country that taxes you on income abroad. So why would there be double taxation elsewhere?
        gamblor956 12y ago
        More than 2 dozen countries, including China, tax their citizens and permanent residents on their worldwide income. However, as a practical matter only the U.S. actually attempts to enforce its income tax laws on a worldwide basis. The U.S. and China both offer an expatriate exemption (first $100k in income for the US) and foreign tax credits against U.S./China taxes for local country income taxes paid.
- parennoob 12y ago
  What are some such podcasts or companies? Sounds like an interesting topic. [Email in my profile.]
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    http://habrahabr.ru/post/131223/ http://habrahabr.ru/post/131223/ This is the podcast, and the company in question is aviasales.ru.
- vidarh 12y ago
  On a business visa it sounds strange, assuming it's a type of business visa that allows "productive work" (as opposed to meetings/taking instruction, which is generally ok on less stringent visa types, or). On a tourist visa, or "non-working" business visa, it is commonly illegal to do work even if for a foreign company and for a foreign market in many, maybe most, countries. The visas don't tend to take into consideration the nationality of the company you work for, or the notional audience, because it'd make it trivial to work around (set up a "foreign" company owned by some trust to hire you, set up another foreign company to buy what you build, and have said companies contract with a local company), instead they regulate the type of activity you can engage in. (e.g. I used to
  - hackerboos 12y ago
    To clarify - you can't work on a Non-B (Business) visa. You can attend meetings, sign contracts, make investments etc. Non-B visas are also needed if you want to get a work permit. You can't get a work permit whilst on a tourist visa. Starting your own company in order to get a work permit requires 2,000,000 baht ($62,000) of registered capital and social security payments 4 Thai employees. There is also reasonably sized list of businesses you cannot start. You also can't own your businesses outright unless it's approved by the Board of Investment. It's very difficult to do business there legally.
- cageface 12y ago
  You're making the common mistake of assuming there's come kind of rational, centralized decision making process at work here. As longer term expats tend to say "TIT" (aka this is Thailand). Don't expect it to be consistent or make sense to a Western mind.
corv 12y ago
I'll ask my Thai lawyer whether or not using Skype and checking emails is illegal in Thailand.
- wila 12y ago
  It's not illegal unless you get specifically paid for doing that type of thing. Eg. if you are doing a secretarial job and get paid for checking email and answering skype. Not that it hurts to ask your Thai lawyer for a confirmation.
_pmf_ 12y ago
> Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind of thing. Or EU law. Non-EU people cannot just come to EU countries and work as freelancer.
- seszett 12y ago
  Or US law. A Thai citizen can't come to the US with a tourist visa and work there as a freelancer either, as far as I know.
- Mikushi 12y ago
  But that's not being a freelancer at all. I have a business registered in the UK, my clients are international, I pay all business taxes in the UK, but I will occasionally spend a couple months abroad, I'm not freelancing or even doing local business. I'm just staying there as a tourist, visiting, enjoying local life, while still being able to run my business.
  - archagon 12y ago
    I've wondered about this but haven't found a clear answer. If I'm working on some projects under a US LLC, does it count as "work" in whatever country I'm currently in? Do I have to pay local taxes? Get a visa? And what does it mean for my tax situation in the US? Our laws weren't written for this manner of work, so I wonder how it's going to get resolved.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      Generally you should assume that yes, it will count as work in whatever country you're currently in, and doing it on a tourist visa is often illegal. In practice it will depend on exactly what you do, and where. E.g. I used to travel to US a lot on the visa waiver scheme, and was briefed by an expensive US immigration lawyer on how to answer immigration questions out of concern that if I were to answer the wrong thing I might get turned away even without actually ever doing anything wrong. In the US the general rule is that if you visit without a business visa, you can not do "productive work". That is, you can go to meetings and take instructions from your employer or a client, answer e-mails (but work you may need to do to be able to answer it may in theory not be allowed), or negotiate a contract, but you can't work on a project. In practice US immigration is pretty flexible as long as you're not taking the piss or give them reasons for concerns, and never overstay. Other countries can vary substantially - some will see you as an income stream for their country, others will see you as a nuisance, and treat you accordingly. When it comes to taxation, you should assume that yes, you have to pay local taxes unless you specifically know otherwise. In most countries there will be a time threshold and/or a matter of what work you do, and often you won't be able to stay long enough or do work that incurs taxation on the most basic business visas anyway. 3 or 6 months is a common threshold before being considered resident for tax purposes, but tax liabilities can be incurred before you're considered resident some places. In many cases there will be treaties in place that regulates which country you should be taxing to if you're ordinarily resident - or a citizen - somewhere else. If you're a US citizen, you have the added complication that the IRS considers its jurisdiction over US citizens as global, and so you need to check the situation before you do work abroad, as the absence of a tax treaty regulating income taxes can in the worst case mean you'll get taxed twice. And yes, our laws were written for this manner of work. People have been travelling across borders to work for centuries. There's an extensive amount of treaties and case law dedicated to handling this, and large numbers of lawyers specialising on giving advice on how to deal with this.
peteretep 12y ago
> Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind > of thing. If you're earning money in Thailand then you > need all the right permits and paperwork. It doesn't > matter if you're not working for a Thai company or doing > business in Thailand. The problem is what you've just said isn't true - it might be true, and no-one has any damn idea. Immigration give consistently mixed messages, as does the Labour department. If it was a cut and dry as you suggest, no-one would work here, but it's not.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- cageface 12y ago
  Nothing is cut and dry in Southeast Asia, particularly when the government has just been thrown out of power by the military. The first thing you learn when living here is not to expect anything to make sense or work the way it should in your view of what's logical or practical. Certainly Thailand has a history of being much more strict about this kind of thing than its neighbors though.
- johnnyfd 12y ago
  Peter is correct. Cageface is wrong. No one is influxing to Vietnam, especially after the internet there was cut for the second time in the past few months. There is currently no Visa that fits the needs of a digital nomad. The business visa is too complex as DMs aren't actually working for a Thai company. Which means a Tourist Visa is actually the best suited visa currently. The solution would for Thailand to create an easy to obtain Tourist+ Visa which would cost more but would allow the tourist to also work on their online businesses while here, as long as it doesn't interfere with local Thai businesses, accept Thai baht, have Thai customers, or take away Thai jobs. Digital Nomads would happily pay $300+ for a 1 year, multiple entry TR+ visa if it existed.
peteretep 12y ago
> Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind > of thing. If you're earning money in Thailand then you > need all the right permits and paperwork. It doesn't > matter if you're not working for a Thai company or doing > business in Thailand. The problem is what you've just said isn't true - it might be true, and no-one has any damn idea. Immigration give consistently mixed messages, as does the Labour department. If it was a cut and dry as you suggest, no-one would work here, but it's not.

guard-of-terra 12y ago

That's a stupid thing to do. I know from podcasts that there are Russian companies who let their Russian developers stay in Thailand on a business visa, developing their product for Russian audience. What does Thailand gains by scaring those people? After all they spend a lot of their wage money there. What's the downside?

curiouscats 12y ago
Yes it would be unwise. The authorities let everyone go once they figure out what was going on - they seemed to think the people were employees of the cafe... The policy is fairly straightforward, but letting people do "digital nomad" work while trying to stop those taking jobs in a country isn't so easy. A bunch of countries in SE Asia seem to have economic development people in favor of attracting these people to their country. But coordinating with the immigration enforcement authorities isn't very well developed (given the systems in place this isn't an easy problem it will likely be messy for awhile). And if long term visitors are seen as negative (often for acting out and making asses of themselves) this can lead to crackdowns. A few jerks are very noticeable, so a large community of good visitors can be seen as a negative based on just a few bad actors.
riffraff 12y ago
thinking as a thai junta member: if you want to stay here, and work here, please be kind enough as to pay 40% of your wage in taxes rather than spend 5% on fried rice.
- Mikushi 12y ago
  But that's the thing, it's 2014, it's not working there, it's working on the internet, which is everywhere. Laws need to change to accommodate telecommuting workers, no way I would pay my taxes twice.
  - lucian1900 12y ago
    Why would you pay them twice? Pay them once, in the country you actually live in.
    - hluska 12y ago
      These are called tax treaties - each individual treaty has some different rules regarding where incomes are earned and where taxes are owning. As an example, here is one between Thailand and Canada: http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/thailand_-eng.asp http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/thailand_-eng.asp
      - nilsimsa 12y ago
        As I understand it, the US is the only country that taxes you on income abroad. So why would there be double taxation elsewhere?
        gamblor956 12y ago
        More than 2 dozen countries, including China, tax their citizens and permanent residents on their worldwide income. However, as a practical matter only the U.S. actually attempts to enforce its income tax laws on a worldwide basis. The U.S. and China both offer an expatriate exemption (first $100k in income for the US) and foreign tax credits against U.S./China taxes for local country income taxes paid.
parennoob 12y ago
What are some such podcasts or companies? Sounds like an interesting topic. [Email in my profile.]
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  http://habrahabr.ru/post/131223/ http://habrahabr.ru/post/131223/ This is the podcast, and the company in question is aviasales.ru.
vidarh 12y ago
On a business visa it sounds strange, assuming it's a type of business visa that allows "productive work" (as opposed to meetings/taking instruction, which is generally ok on less stringent visa types, or). On a tourist visa, or "non-working" business visa, it is commonly illegal to do work even if for a foreign company and for a foreign market in many, maybe most, countries. The visas don't tend to take into consideration the nationality of the company you work for, or the notional audience, because it'd make it trivial to work around (set up a "foreign" company owned by some trust to hire you, set up another foreign company to buy what you build, and have said companies contract with a local company), instead they regulate the type of activity you can engage in. (e.g. I used to
- hackerboos 12y ago
  To clarify - you can't work on a Non-B (Business) visa. You can attend meetings, sign contracts, make investments etc. Non-B visas are also needed if you want to get a work permit. You can't get a work permit whilst on a tourist visa. Starting your own company in order to get a work permit requires 2,000,000 baht ($62,000) of registered capital and social security payments 4 Thai employees. There is also reasonably sized list of businesses you cannot start. You also can't own your businesses outright unless it's approved by the Board of Investment. It's very difficult to do business there legally.
cageface 12y ago
You're making the common mistake of assuming there's come kind of rational, centralized decision making process at work here. As longer term expats tend to say "TIT" (aka this is Thailand). Don't expect it to be consistent or make sense to a Western mind.

corv 12y ago

I'll ask my Thai lawyer whether or not using Skype and checking emails is illegal in Thailand.

wila 12y ago
It's not illegal unless you get specifically paid for doing that type of thing. Eg. if you are doing a secretarial job and get paid for checking email and answering skype. Not that it hurts to ask your Thai lawyer for a confirmation.

_pmf_ 12y ago

> Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind of thing. Or EU law. Non-EU people cannot just come to EU countries and work as freelancer.

seszett 12y ago
Or US law. A Thai citizen can't come to the US with a tourist visa and work there as a freelancer either, as far as I know.
Mikushi 12y ago
But that's not being a freelancer at all. I have a business registered in the UK, my clients are international, I pay all business taxes in the UK, but I will occasionally spend a couple months abroad, I'm not freelancing or even doing local business. I'm just staying there as a tourist, visiting, enjoying local life, while still being able to run my business.
- archagon 12y ago
  I've wondered about this but haven't found a clear answer. If I'm working on some projects under a US LLC, does it count as "work" in whatever country I'm currently in? Do I have to pay local taxes? Get a visa? And what does it mean for my tax situation in the US? Our laws weren't written for this manner of work, so I wonder how it's going to get resolved.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    Generally you should assume that yes, it will count as work in whatever country you're currently in, and doing it on a tourist visa is often illegal. In practice it will depend on exactly what you do, and where. E.g. I used to travel to US a lot on the visa waiver scheme, and was briefed by an expensive US immigration lawyer on how to answer immigration questions out of concern that if I were to answer the wrong thing I might get turned away even without actually ever doing anything wrong. In the US the general rule is that if you visit without a business visa, you can not do "productive work". That is, you can go to meetings and take instructions from your employer or a client, answer e-mails (but work you may need to do to be able to answer it may in theory not be allowed), or negotiate a contract, but you can't work on a project. In practice US immigration is pretty flexible as long as you're not taking the piss or give them reasons for concerns, and never overstay. Other countries can vary substantially - some will see you as an income stream for their country, others will see you as a nuisance, and treat you accordingly. When it comes to taxation, you should assume that yes, you have to pay local taxes unless you specifically know otherwise. In most countries there will be a time threshold and/or a matter of what work you do, and often you won't be able to stay long enough or do work that incurs taxation on the most basic business visas anyway. 3 or 6 months is a common threshold before being considered resident for tax purposes, but tax liabilities can be incurred before you're considered resident some places. In many cases there will be treaties in place that regulates which country you should be taxing to if you're ordinarily resident - or a citizen - somewhere else. If you're a US citizen, you have the added complication that the IRS considers its jurisdiction over US citizens as global, and so you need to check the situation before you do work abroad, as the absence of a tax treaty regulating income taxes can in the worst case mean you'll get taxed twice. And yes, our laws were written for this manner of work. People have been travelling across borders to work for centuries. There's an extensive amount of treaties and case law dedicated to handling this, and large numbers of lawyers specialising on giving advice on how to deal with this.

peteretep 12y ago

> Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind > of thing. If you're earning money in Thailand then you > need all the right permits and paperwork. It doesn't > matter if you're not working for a Thai company or doing > business in Thailand. The problem is what you've just said isn't true - it might be true, and no-one has any damn idea. Immigration give consistently mixed messages, as does the Labour department. If it was a cut and dry as you suggest, no-one would work here, but it's not.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
cageface 12y ago
Nothing is cut and dry in Southeast Asia, particularly when the government has just been thrown out of power by the military. The first thing you learn when living here is not to expect anything to make sense or work the way it should in your view of what's logical or practical. Certainly Thailand has a history of being much more strict about this kind of thing than its neighbors though.
johnnyfd 12y ago
Peter is correct. Cageface is wrong. No one is influxing to Vietnam, especially after the internet there was cut for the second time in the past few months. There is currently no Visa that fits the needs of a digital nomad. The business visa is too complex as DMs aren't actually working for a Thai company. Which means a Tourist Visa is actually the best suited visa currently. The solution would for Thailand to create an easy to obtain Tourist+ Visa which would cost more but would allow the tourist to also work on their online businesses while here, as long as it doesn't interfere with local Thai businesses, accept Thai baht, have Thai customers, or take away Thai jobs. Digital Nomads would happily pay $300+ for a 1 year, multiple entry TR+ visa if it existed.

peteretep 12y ago