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But the article isn't just talking about the NSA and National Security Letters - this is about law enforcement. If Apple and Google claim to be technically unab

But the article isn't just talking about the NSA and National Security Letters - this is about law enforcement. If Apple and Google claim to be technically unable to comply with LE requests, it won't take long to see whether that is indeed the case or not - unlike national security-related demands, law enforcement won't be able to keep their successes or failures at demanding access to this data a secret. If this was tech companies claiming to no longer comply with NSL's, I'd be at very least suspicious as there'd be no way to test these doubts short of another Snowden. But this is law enforcement, subject to all kinds of scrutiny in courts across the US. It'll be much easier to see whether Apple and Google are successful at resisting their demands.

xnull 12y ago
A very good point. Local police will likely be able to access the device but only after calling up the chain. Previous versions of iOS and other smartphones had forensics kits that made it trivial for local law enforcement to grab data out of memory (via DMA/firewire for example) or by device management services. I expect those kits to continue working for devices that have not been powered off.
- socceroos 12y ago
  hhhhh, keys in RAM. Life is so difficult.
Estragon 12y ago
I don't see why it's such a big deal for law enforcement investigators. They'll still be able to force Apple and Google to send trojan clients to targets, as happened with Hushmail, won't they?
- meowface 12y ago
  Yes, but it still makes their jobs a lot more difficult. I'm of the opinion that this is not a ruse or scheme, and that law enforcement are genuinely dissatisfied with this. Note that law enforcement and the NSA have a tenuous relationship at best. Even if the NSA still do have privileged access after default mobile encryption is fully rolled out, law enforcement generally will not be able to tap into that except in extreme and rare cases.
  - deciplex 12y ago
    >law enforcement generally will not be able to tap into that except in extreme and rare cases Like when they pull someone over for having a tail light out? I can't reconcile your statement here with what we already know about parallel construction.
    - deciplex 12y ago
      Okay... so I guess someone here knows more about parallel construction than I do, however while they were kind enough to let us know this by downvoting my apparently wrong post, they were not kind enough to share their thoughts. Are law enforcement agencies not getting data from the NSA to use in arresting and prosecuting defendants via parallel construction?
      - xnull2guest 12y ago
        According to Binney they almost certifiably are. I think they downvoted because Binney cites the DEA, CIA and FBI - which are law enforcement - however in this thread posters have taken law enforcement to mean your friendly neighborhood municipal police officer.
  - ruloo 12y ago
    Law enforcement is far over reaching in my opinion. This data is still hackable because all data is hackable. the fact it is inconvenient is a good thing. This is like saying you should only be allowed to have car or house locks that law enforcement has keys to. They can still acquire the data but they will need to spend significant resources to do it. Invading your citizens privacy should be difficult!
    - meowface 12y ago
      I agree.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      > This is like saying you should only be allowed to have car or house locks that law enforcement has keys to. Well... there's no real need to say that, because it's already the case. If they want to open your locks, they will.
- Varcht 12y ago
  I have to wonder if this is in part driven by a disdain for civic observance. Seems like every week I hear about instances of people getting their phones taken away at least temporarily for video taping police actions only to receive their phones back with the video deleted.
someone234 12y ago
> But the article isn't just talking about the NSA and National Security Letters - this is about law enforcement. No it's not. It's just that "law enforcement" sounds more comforting than "tyranny". Here's how to interpret "law": Law = A written order issued by your rulers. Lawful = Good = Anything your rulers want you to do. Unlawful = Bad = Anything your rulers don't want you to do. Law enforcement, verb = Forcing you to do what they want you to. Law enforcement, noun = People whom laws don't apply to.
- Nikker 12y ago
  "Law = A written order issued by your rulers. " Don't be so obtuse. A law is a written order, adding the remainder is just an inflammatory accusation that undermines the public at large. You may believe that the public or those governed by which ever particular law you select are too scared or ignorant and have the law imposed on them from outside interests but the greater numbers always win in the end. A particular rule of law may be arduous today and for many more consecutive days but one day the rule will change. This is evident throughout history and will continue to be.
  - someone234 12y ago
    > A law is a written order, adding the remainder is just an inflammatory accusation that undermines the public at large. Undermines the public how? > A particular rule of law may be arduous today "Rule of law" is a misnomer. It's actually rule by those who decide what the laws are. That would be the "elected representatives", ie. politicians of course. In other words, politicians are our rulers because they make the rules that are ultimately enforced at gunpoint, if you don't feel like obeying at first. But a law is just text somewhere. But even if the text contains a decree on what everyone must or must not do, that alone does not change people's behaviour one bit. For example, if I write down on a piece of paper that you have to give 30% of your income to me, will you do it? OK, what if I threaten you with imprisonment if you don't?
    - goatforce5 12y ago
      > OK, what if I threaten you with imprisonment if you don't? You and what army? (Not trying to be snarky. That quote seems very apt.)
charonn0 12y ago
> unlike national security-related demands, law enforcement won't be able to keep their successes or failures at demanding access to this data a secret. They can and they do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
- ultramancool 12y ago
  The thing is, parallel construction won't work out unless there's another legitimate path which exists anyways. Scream it all you want, but if there's no other way to the conclusion, there's still no way to use the evidence short of outright lying and falsifying evidence. I don't think parallel construction is nearly as big of a threat as people seem to make it out to be. It gives law enforcement nothing more than a hint and some unusable evidence. There still needs to be a path that works legally. And that's not even getting into the fact that iOS is heavily reverse engineered, often searching for backdoors and cryptographic vulnerabilities and Android is open source and publicly reviewable. I've reviewed some of the key derivation code myself as I was curious if it was being done properly. I'm all for paranoia, it just need to be useful paranoia under a given threat model. Beyond that, it's nothing more than speculation and a waste of time.
  - charonn0 12y ago
    It's not about the rules of evidence. It's about the rule of law. Parallel construction is an unconstitutional and dangerous abuse of law-enforcement power that cannot be tolerated.

xnull 12y ago

A very good point. Local police will likely be able to access the device but only after calling up the chain. Previous versions of iOS and other smartphones had forensics kits that made it trivial for local law enforcement to grab data out of memory (via DMA/firewire for example) or by device management services. I expect those kits to continue working for devices that have not been powered off.

socceroos 12y ago
hhhhh, keys in RAM. Life is so difficult.

Estragon 12y ago

I don't see why it's such a big deal for law enforcement investigators. They'll still be able to force Apple and Google to send trojan clients to targets, as happened with Hushmail, won't they?

meowface 12y ago
Yes, but it still makes their jobs a lot more difficult. I'm of the opinion that this is not a ruse or scheme, and that law enforcement are genuinely dissatisfied with this. Note that law enforcement and the NSA have a tenuous relationship at best. Even if the NSA still do have privileged access after default mobile encryption is fully rolled out, law enforcement generally will not be able to tap into that except in extreme and rare cases.
- deciplex 12y ago
  >law enforcement generally will not be able to tap into that except in extreme and rare cases Like when they pull someone over for having a tail light out? I can't reconcile your statement here with what we already know about parallel construction.
  - deciplex 12y ago
    Okay... so I guess someone here knows more about parallel construction than I do, however while they were kind enough to let us know this by downvoting my apparently wrong post, they were not kind enough to share their thoughts. Are law enforcement agencies not getting data from the NSA to use in arresting and prosecuting defendants via parallel construction?
    - xnull2guest 12y ago
      According to Binney they almost certifiably are. I think they downvoted because Binney cites the DEA, CIA and FBI - which are law enforcement - however in this thread posters have taken law enforcement to mean your friendly neighborhood municipal police officer.
- ruloo 12y ago
  Law enforcement is far over reaching in my opinion. This data is still hackable because all data is hackable. the fact it is inconvenient is a good thing. This is like saying you should only be allowed to have car or house locks that law enforcement has keys to. They can still acquire the data but they will need to spend significant resources to do it. Invading your citizens privacy should be difficult!
  - meowface 12y ago
    I agree.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    > This is like saying you should only be allowed to have car or house locks that law enforcement has keys to. Well... there's no real need to say that, because it's already the case. If they want to open your locks, they will.
Varcht 12y ago
I have to wonder if this is in part driven by a disdain for civic observance. Seems like every week I hear about instances of people getting their phones taken away at least temporarily for video taping police actions only to receive their phones back with the video deleted.

someone234 12y ago

> But the article isn't just talking about the NSA and National Security Letters - this is about law enforcement. No it's not. It's just that "law enforcement" sounds more comforting than "tyranny". Here's how to interpret "law": Law = A written order issued by your rulers. Lawful = Good = Anything your rulers want you to do. Unlawful = Bad = Anything your rulers don't want you to do. Law enforcement, verb = Forcing you to do what they want you to. Law enforcement, noun = People whom laws don't apply to.

Nikker 12y ago
"Law = A written order issued by your rulers. " Don't be so obtuse. A law is a written order, adding the remainder is just an inflammatory accusation that undermines the public at large. You may believe that the public or those governed by which ever particular law you select are too scared or ignorant and have the law imposed on them from outside interests but the greater numbers always win in the end. A particular rule of law may be arduous today and for many more consecutive days but one day the rule will change. This is evident throughout history and will continue to be.
- someone234 12y ago
  > A law is a written order, adding the remainder is just an inflammatory accusation that undermines the public at large. Undermines the public how? > A particular rule of law may be arduous today "Rule of law" is a misnomer. It's actually rule by those who decide what the laws are. That would be the "elected representatives", ie. politicians of course. In other words, politicians are our rulers because they make the rules that are ultimately enforced at gunpoint, if you don't feel like obeying at first. But a law is just text somewhere. But even if the text contains a decree on what everyone must or must not do, that alone does not change people's behaviour one bit. For example, if I write down on a piece of paper that you have to give 30% of your income to me, will you do it? OK, what if I threaten you with imprisonment if you don't?
  - goatforce5 12y ago
    > OK, what if I threaten you with imprisonment if you don't? You and what army? (Not trying to be snarky. That quote seems very apt.)

charonn0 12y ago

> unlike national security-related demands, law enforcement won't be able to keep their successes or failures at demanding access to this data a secret. They can and they do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

ultramancool 12y ago
The thing is, parallel construction won't work out unless there's another legitimate path which exists anyways. Scream it all you want, but if there's no other way to the conclusion, there's still no way to use the evidence short of outright lying and falsifying evidence. I don't think parallel construction is nearly as big of a threat as people seem to make it out to be. It gives law enforcement nothing more than a hint and some unusable evidence. There still needs to be a path that works legally. And that's not even getting into the fact that iOS is heavily reverse engineered, often searching for backdoors and cryptographic vulnerabilities and Android is open source and publicly reviewable. I've reviewed some of the key derivation code myself as I was curious if it was being done properly. I'm all for paranoia, it just need to be useful paranoia under a given threat model. Beyond that, it's nothing more than speculation and a waste of time.
- charonn0 12y ago
  It's not about the rules of evidence. It's about the rule of law. Parallel construction is an unconstitutional and dangerous abuse of law-enforcement power that cannot be tolerated.