3 ms·

Apart from the url mismatch, is this illegal? I don't think so, they are selling support for an opensource project. If this support is bad, not needed, ..., is

by antirez 17y ago

Apart from the url mismatch, is this illegal? I don't think so, they are selling support for an opensource project. If this support is bad, not needed, ..., is more an ethical problem, but otherwise there is nothing wrong about it.

Tuna-Fish 17y ago
The only thing here that's illegal is using mozilla's trademarks without their permission.
- Erf 17y ago
  They seem to have mostly avoided that, actually. There's no Firefox logo on their site, for example.
  - Tuna-Fish 17y ago
    The url shown in google is a gross violation. Mozilla could easily sue them for that alone.
    - idm 17y ago
      This is what "Trademark" is all about, for once: preventing consumers from being misled.
pmjordan 17y ago
As far as I can tell, it's something of a grey area. The German c't magazine reported on this type of scam recently. Apparently it's common in Germany, used against users searching for FOSS (OpenOffice, Firefox, etc.) and various freeware. While charging for support isn't illegal in itself, a few cases have made their way through the courts, with the burned users not having to pay up as it's often not clear what the service you are paying for is even supposed to be. What is of course illegal (at least in Europe, I'd hope elsewhere too) is hiding the fact that they're charging for anything in the first place. The operators have cottoned on to this and will hide any mention of cost or a contract when you visit the page via a search engine or ad (based on the Referer [sic] header), but if you go back to the page directly after signing up or receiving a bill, it's all there. Obviously, they're trying to make you think you missed it first time around. I suspect there is in theory also legal ground to fight this based on trademark, etc. grounds, but there's probably almost zero chance of real success, as it's way too easy to open a throwaway business that closes down the first sign of trouble. The way to get at these guys is presumably proving them guilty of a criminal offence (fraud), in which case the business front won't help. If you end up a victim of this sort of scam, basically categorically state (in writing) that you weren't aware you were agreeing to a contract, and that the contract is therefore void. Also, don't give them more info on you than they already have. If they send the bill by email and they don't have your physical address, don't send the refusal to pay in the mail with a return address, etc. They'll rarely try to hunt you down if you flat out refuse, there are unfortunately enough victims that will cough up as soon as they get a scary sounding letter with a legal-looking letterhead.
- uigbygb 17y ago
  It's especially common in Germany because of some odd laws about debt collecting. I don't remember the details but somehow it's a offense for YOU not to respond to their demand for money. Most people pay up because having a judgement against you screws up your credit rating.
camccann 17y ago
It may not be illegal, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't a flagrant violation of Google's terms of service and likely to get the advertiser's AdWords account terminated with extreme prejudice. "Illegal" and "nothing wrong" aren't an exhaustive set.
- cracki 17y ago
  what do you mean by "extreme prejudice"?
  - NathanKP 17y ago
    Extreme prejudice doubtlessly means that after Google AdWords finished terminating the scammers AdWords account they will probably also manually adjust their search engine rankings to make sure that they never appear again in any Google search. ;0 Messing with Google will get you totally banned.
  - zach 17y ago
    Meaning like every other Google account termination, probably...
  - camccann 17y ago
    Yay, obscure idiom time! The phrase "terminate with prejudice," largely fallen into disuse today, means basically "fire this person and blacklist them from ever working here again". The variant "terminate with extreme prejudice" was popularized by the film Apocalypse Now and is a euphemism of sorts meaning "assassinate". Basically implying (mostly tongue in cheek) that Google's retribution might go beyond just "terminate their AdWords account".
DEinspanjer 17y ago
Legality questions aside, it is certainly really bad for any user running into this. The download that the user actually gets after giving away their credit card info is an ancient version of the Mozilla Suite, not even Firefox. The support is pretty much non-existent as well. People can't actually get the help they paid for.

by antirez 17y ago

Tuna-Fish 17y ago

The only thing here that's illegal is using mozilla's trademarks without their permission.

Erf 17y ago
They seem to have mostly avoided that, actually. There's no Firefox logo on their site, for example.
- Tuna-Fish 17y ago
  The url shown in google is a gross violation. Mozilla could easily sue them for that alone.
  - idm 17y ago
    This is what "Trademark" is all about, for once: preventing consumers from being misled.

pmjordan 17y ago

As far as I can tell, it's something of a grey area. The German c't magazine reported on this type of scam recently. Apparently it's common in Germany, used against users searching for FOSS (OpenOffice, Firefox, etc.) and various freeware. While charging for support isn't illegal in itself, a few cases have made their way through the courts, with the burned users not having to pay up as it's often not clear what the service you are paying for is even supposed to be. What is of course illegal (at least in Europe, I'd hope elsewhere too) is hiding the fact that they're charging for anything in the first place. The operators have cottoned on to this and will hide any mention of cost or a contract when you visit the page via a search engine or ad (based on the Referer [sic] header), but if you go back to the page directly after signing up or receiving a bill, it's all there. Obviously, they're trying to make you think you missed it first time around. I suspect there is in theory also legal ground to fight this based on trademark, etc. grounds, but there's probably almost zero chance of real success, as it's way too easy to open a throwaway business that closes down the first sign of trouble. The way to get at these guys is presumably proving them guilty of a criminal offence (fraud), in which case the business front won't help. If you end up a victim of this sort of scam, basically categorically state (in writing) that you weren't aware you were agreeing to a contract, and that the contract is therefore void. Also, don't give them more info on you than they already have. If they send the bill by email and they don't have your physical address, don't send the refusal to pay in the mail with a return address, etc. They'll rarely try to hunt you down if you flat out refuse, there are unfortunately enough victims that will cough up as soon as they get a scary sounding letter with a legal-looking letterhead.

uigbygb 17y ago
It's especially common in Germany because of some odd laws about debt collecting. I don't remember the details but somehow it's a offense for YOU not to respond to their demand for money. Most people pay up because having a judgement against you screws up your credit rating.

camccann 17y ago

It may not be illegal, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't a flagrant violation of Google's terms of service and likely to get the advertiser's AdWords account terminated with extreme prejudice. "Illegal" and "nothing wrong" aren't an exhaustive set.

cracki 17y ago
what do you mean by "extreme prejudice"?
- NathanKP 17y ago
  Extreme prejudice doubtlessly means that after Google AdWords finished terminating the scammers AdWords account they will probably also manually adjust their search engine rankings to make sure that they never appear again in any Google search. ;0 Messing with Google will get you totally banned.
- zach 17y ago
  Meaning like every other Google account termination, probably...
- camccann 17y ago
  Yay, obscure idiom time! The phrase "terminate with prejudice," largely fallen into disuse today, means basically "fire this person and blacklist them from ever working here again". The variant "terminate with extreme prejudice" was popularized by the film Apocalypse Now and is a euphemism of sorts meaning "assassinate". Basically implying (mostly tongue in cheek) that Google's retribution might go beyond just "terminate their AdWords account".

DEinspanjer 17y ago

Legality questions aside, it is certainly really bad for any user running into this. The download that the user actually gets after giving away their credit card info is an ancient version of the Mozilla Suite, not even Firefox. The support is pretty much non-existent as well. People can't actually get the help they paid for.