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Why would anyone subject themselves to this torture? It's not worth it. You're making money that you can't enjoy. You're missing out on your kids childhood to d

Why would anyone subject themselves to this torture? It's not worth it. You're making money that you can't enjoy. You're missing out on your kids childhood to design a smartphone.

odonnellryan 12y ago
It's fun. Instead of spending 40-50 hours a week doing something you might or might not enjoy, you're on the cutting edge, and you're doing something you definitely enjoy. Doesn't make it worth it, but that's part of it?
- tannerc 12y ago
  I think you've outlined something really important here in terms of value and individualism. Some people get value from spending time in the great outdoors, others by growing and caring for a family, for a large number of people (I imagine) in Silicon Valley there is no better way to spend your time then sweating at 1 am because you need to solve a problem. I'm one such person. Fortunately I don't have a family to look after, so I can dedicate myself to doing exactly what I absolutely love: working. That doesn't mean I don't try to get enough sleep, that I don't exercise daily, and occasionally participate in yoga (not to mention my daily morning meditation practice). But still, to me, this type of lifestyle is fun. We'll see how old age influences my perception, of course.
baddox 12y ago
Not everyone has children or intends to have children.
kghose 12y ago
Some folks like the pressure - like being always on, are bored by "regular" life. Some folks like the power and the prestige (they are dangerous for those below).
dilap 12y ago
Different strokes, different folks. Erdős missed out on all kinds of traditional life to do just math. If you care a lot about, or are really excited about what you're doing, then it's worth it. Or worth it for a while.
- dxbydt 12y ago
  What Erdos worked on will outlast us all. Your great grandkids will be studying his theorems. OTOH, getting an iPhone to last beyond the annual upgrade cycle is a monumental achievement.
  - endzone 12y ago
    indeed. erdos is an extremely unfavourable comparison...
  - general_failure 12y ago
    So, it's all justified if your work outlasts you? Such work is impossible to know in advance when you are working on it.
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      Impossible to know, quite possible to have a reasonable guess.
  - vlunkr 12y ago
    Yes but you're comparing the wrong things. A single iPhone may not last long, but the impact of the iPhone has been tremendous.
  - dilap 12y ago
    Erdos is an extreme case! But for some people, given their talents, being part of making the iPhone might be a significant enough accomplishment to devote some serious time to.
tdicola 12y ago
I would bet many of them justify it as a means to build a fortune that their kids can use to live a better life. Kind of like immigrants moving to America and working all their life in factories so their kids could go to college. Unfortunately the sad truth is them being away from their family will probably hurt much more than a huge lump of cash would help.
- jschmitz28 12y ago
  Those who use that justification should go watch Breaking Bad.
beloch 12y ago
For a long time, pay at Apple was well below industry average to boot. I don't know if that's changed. Also, finding an equivalent job in silicon valley might have been hard when Jobs and other execs had agreements about not hiring each other's people. I could see toughing it out for a couple years as a young person to pad my resume, but doing it long-term? Yeah, it's a little nuts.
- jeffreyrogers 12y ago
  But what about bonuses and other forms of compensation? I know of a number of companies where the executives and senior management make nominal amounts in salary but very large amounts in performance based compensation tied closely to certain metrics that the business has decided are important. Most significantly, these bonuses are not guaranteed, but are only given out if certain expectations are met.
jeffreyrogers 12y ago
Some people enjoy it and some people are willing to put up with it because the rewards for good performance are commensurate. A good book that describes this philosophy is Dream Big [1], which is about the group of investors who acquired Anheuser Busch, Heinz, Burger King, and most recently Tim Hortons. Typically in companies where you see this level of commitment there is both a large opportunity for reward and people are rewarded in proportion to the value you bring to the table. For a look at the opposite end of the spectrum you might look at Microsoft currently (although this seems to be changing with the new CEO). I have a friend who works there currently as a manager and he's told me about the bureaucracy there where people are promoted largely on seniority, rather than merit. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/DREAM-BIG-Brazilian-Sicupira-Anheuser-Busch-ebook/dp/B00JUWYGDQ http://www.amazon.com/DREAM-BIG-Brazilian-Sicupira-Anheuser-...
general_failure 12y ago
This is very narrow minded. Designing a smartphone is very much a big deal. It has changed my job completely and has directly affected millions of people. It's not trivial as you make it sound. Scientists, explorers in history have made many many such decisions in the past. This is nothing new. I mean the explorers of the past would leave their family behind and head on voyagers where return was in no way guaranteed. They are basically willingly agreeing to orphaning their children for fame and glory. Following through your logic, 'it is just a piece of land', who cares.
incision 12y ago
>'Why would anyone subject themselves to this torture?' It wasn't at Apple or anything approaching it, but I had years of similar treatment - expectations of 24/7 availability, continuous last minute, personal service to executives and never-ending crunch time. I didn't have kids or a mortgage to worry about and I had enough in the bank that I could probably have spent a year or more unemployed without much concern for money. For me, it was several things. * Pride in being dependable and capable of delivering on whatever was asked of me. * A not entirely conscious expectation that I would eventually be rewarded for such sacrifice. * Genuine enjoyment of much of the work I was doing. Needless to say, my outlook has changed a bit in the years since, but looking back, I don’t think it was having a child or any other responsibility that did it. More than anything it’s probably the simple realization that deriving enjoyment from something doesn't negate its cost. Moderation is straightforward for things which are easy to categorize. The difficulty in categorizing ‘enjoyable work’ is implicit. I think that saying to the effect of ‘find a job you love and never work a day in your life’ is only talking about a certain part of your mind. Your body and all the unconscious and unobvious bits that make up your life are not immune to wear and tear by virtue of your positive perception. Next would be understanding the diminishing returns and potential negatives of hard work. In short, if you’re going to work hard for someone else, aim high, help that person succeed and see that their success is tied to yours. Being too valuable to someone with low aspirations is career poison.
- ianphughes 12y ago
  This really resonates deeply for me as well. When I was completely buried with difficult projects, I would occasionally complain about being "too busy". However, when things normalized to 40-50 hours a week, I would feel lazy. I reached a point where building a reputation as being someone capable of delivering when the situations were not ideal was a far greater motivator than money or free-time. I found Daniel Pink's "Drive" an interesting read on the topic of what really motivates in the modern era.
CoolGuySteve 12y ago
Anyone else notice that all the responses to this parent in favour of these hours is using what looks to be their real name or last name and also seem to be written in the form of a humblebrag? Sometimes I wonder if people are self censoring their comments on here in order to build a professional network or get hired. I guess it's the other side of the coin to the greater internet fuckwad theory; the just-happens-to-be-awesome named commenter.

Why would anyone subject themselves to this torture? It's not worth it. You're making money that you can't enjoy. You're missing out on your kids childhood to design a smartphone.

odonnellryan 12y ago

It's fun. Instead of spending 40-50 hours a week doing something you might or might not enjoy, you're on the cutting edge, and you're doing something you definitely enjoy. Doesn't make it worth it, but that's part of it?

tannerc 12y ago
I think you've outlined something really important here in terms of value and individualism. Some people get value from spending time in the great outdoors, others by growing and caring for a family, for a large number of people (I imagine) in Silicon Valley there is no better way to spend your time then sweating at 1 am because you need to solve a problem. I'm one such person. Fortunately I don't have a family to look after, so I can dedicate myself to doing exactly what I absolutely love: working. That doesn't mean I don't try to get enough sleep, that I don't exercise daily, and occasionally participate in yoga (not to mention my daily morning meditation practice). But still, to me, this type of lifestyle is fun. We'll see how old age influences my perception, of course.

baddox 12y ago

Not everyone has children or intends to have children.

kghose 12y ago

Some folks like the pressure - like being always on, are bored by "regular" life. Some folks like the power and the prestige (they are dangerous for those below).

dilap 12y ago

Different strokes, different folks. Erdős missed out on all kinds of traditional life to do just math. If you care a lot about, or are really excited about what you're doing, then it's worth it. Or worth it for a while.

dxbydt 12y ago
What Erdos worked on will outlast us all. Your great grandkids will be studying his theorems. OTOH, getting an iPhone to last beyond the annual upgrade cycle is a monumental achievement.
- endzone 12y ago
  indeed. erdos is an extremely unfavourable comparison...
- general_failure 12y ago
  So, it's all justified if your work outlasts you? Such work is impossible to know in advance when you are working on it.
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    Impossible to know, quite possible to have a reasonable guess.
- vlunkr 12y ago
  Yes but you're comparing the wrong things. A single iPhone may not last long, but the impact of the iPhone has been tremendous.
- dilap 12y ago
  Erdos is an extreme case! But for some people, given their talents, being part of making the iPhone might be a significant enough accomplishment to devote some serious time to.

tdicola 12y ago

I would bet many of them justify it as a means to build a fortune that their kids can use to live a better life. Kind of like immigrants moving to America and working all their life in factories so their kids could go to college. Unfortunately the sad truth is them being away from their family will probably hurt much more than a huge lump of cash would help.

jschmitz28 12y ago
Those who use that justification should go watch Breaking Bad.

beloch 12y ago

For a long time, pay at Apple was well below industry average to boot. I don't know if that's changed. Also, finding an equivalent job in silicon valley might have been hard when Jobs and other execs had agreements about not hiring each other's people. I could see toughing it out for a couple years as a young person to pad my resume, but doing it long-term? Yeah, it's a little nuts.

jeffreyrogers 12y ago
But what about bonuses and other forms of compensation? I know of a number of companies where the executives and senior management make nominal amounts in salary but very large amounts in performance based compensation tied closely to certain metrics that the business has decided are important. Most significantly, these bonuses are not guaranteed, but are only given out if certain expectations are met.

jeffreyrogers 12y ago

Some people enjoy it and some people are willing to put up with it because the rewards for good performance are commensurate. A good book that describes this philosophy is Dream Big [1], which is about the group of investors who acquired Anheuser Busch, Heinz, Burger King, and most recently Tim Hortons. Typically in companies where you see this level of commitment there is both a large opportunity for reward and people are rewarded in proportion to the value you bring to the table. For a look at the opposite end of the spectrum you might look at Microsoft currently (although this seems to be changing with the new CEO). I have a friend who works there currently as a manager and he's told me about the bureaucracy there where people are promoted largely on seniority, rather than merit. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/DREAM-BIG-Brazilian-Sicupira-Anheuser-Busch-ebook/dp/B00JUWYGDQ http://www.amazon.com/DREAM-BIG-Brazilian-Sicupira-Anheuser-...

general_failure 12y ago

This is very narrow minded. Designing a smartphone is very much a big deal. It has changed my job completely and has directly affected millions of people. It's not trivial as you make it sound. Scientists, explorers in history have made many many such decisions in the past. This is nothing new. I mean the explorers of the past would leave their family behind and head on voyagers where return was in no way guaranteed. They are basically willingly agreeing to orphaning their children for fame and glory. Following through your logic, 'it is just a piece of land', who cares.

incision 12y ago

>'Why would anyone subject themselves to this torture?' It wasn't at Apple or anything approaching it, but I had years of similar treatment - expectations of 24/7 availability, continuous last minute, personal service to executives and never-ending crunch time. I didn't have kids or a mortgage to worry about and I had enough in the bank that I could probably have spent a year or more unemployed without much concern for money. For me, it was several things. * Pride in being dependable and capable of delivering on whatever was asked of me. * A not entirely conscious expectation that I would eventually be rewarded for such sacrifice. * Genuine enjoyment of much of the work I was doing. Needless to say, my outlook has changed a bit in the years since, but looking back, I don’t think it was having a child or any other responsibility that did it. More than anything it’s probably the simple realization that deriving enjoyment from something doesn't negate its cost. Moderation is straightforward for things which are easy to categorize. The difficulty in categorizing ‘enjoyable work’ is implicit. I think that saying to the effect of ‘find a job you love and never work a day in your life’ is only talking about a certain part of your mind. Your body and all the unconscious and unobvious bits that make up your life are not immune to wear and tear by virtue of your positive perception. Next would be understanding the diminishing returns and potential negatives of hard work. In short, if you’re going to work hard for someone else, aim high, help that person succeed and see that their success is tied to yours. Being too valuable to someone with low aspirations is career poison.

ianphughes 12y ago
This really resonates deeply for me as well. When I was completely buried with difficult projects, I would occasionally complain about being "too busy". However, when things normalized to 40-50 hours a week, I would feel lazy. I reached a point where building a reputation as being someone capable of delivering when the situations were not ideal was a far greater motivator than money or free-time. I found Daniel Pink's "Drive" an interesting read on the topic of what really motivates in the modern era.

CoolGuySteve 12y ago

Anyone else notice that all the responses to this parent in favour of these hours is using what looks to be their real name or last name and also seem to be written in the form of a humblebrag? Sometimes I wonder if people are self censoring their comments on here in order to build a professional network or get hired. I guess it's the other side of the coin to the greater internet fuckwad theory; the just-happens-to-be-awesome named commenter.