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'OK so maybe there's sexism & racism but they're making money so what's the problem?' I think the author (and I agree with him here) sees the racism & sexism i

by sequoia 12y ago

'OK so maybe there's sexism & racism but they're making money so what's the problem?' I think the author (and I agree with him here) sees the racism & sexism itself as being a problem. Nowhere does he argue that the problem is that racism/sexism are bad for profits. Personally I don't need the market to tell me if racism & sexism are bad and I doubt that you do either.

angersock 12y ago
Sexism and racism are views on life, much like religion and capitalism--I don't have to agree with them without respecting them as views held by other people. Silly, stupid views that I disagree with and find counter-productive, but it is their right to think in that wrongheaded fashion and talk about it. I agree that making policy decisions based on racism and sexism, especially when the affected population has no alternative but to be subject to those decisions (say, no other place to look for work, no other police force to seek protection from, etc.), is wrong. That said, I find it just as wrong to brand other people as bad or evil because they've got some silly view. To put it quite crudely: The primary job of YC is not the policing of ideas and thoughts of people posting on HN beyond keeping things relatively civil.
- comrh 12y ago
  How can you have things "relatively civil" if people engage in sexism and racism?
  - solipsism 12y ago
    Exactly. Parent wants HN kept relatively civil from his/her perspective. When it comes to other people's perspectives, no holds barred.
  - angersock 12y ago
    There are ways of discussing and holding viewpoints that--in the strictest sense of the term--are racist or sexist. Talking about how best to accomodate maternity leave and schedule work is inherently sexist: it is an issue that does not apply to both men and women. Talking about how to handle racial profiling in targeted advertising is inherently racist: it is an issue that is tuned to your views about what messaging works best for a particular race. One can have these viewpoints and maintain civil discourse. One can even have viewpoints that are less pragmatic; e.g., violent crimes clearly committed more frequently by one race over others. In such a case, somebody can civilly point out numbers and studies that refute that viewpoint, and at the point one can either accede or agree to disagree. Being civil doesn't have anything to do with agreeing with people, or even being right.
    - solipsism 12y ago
      Do you happen to be a white and/or male? The only reason I ask (rhetorically, obviously -- please don't answer) is that, if you are, you might fail to realize that your position is one of privilege in our society. One of those many privileges shared by you and me is that what society considers common, civil discourse is very rarely offensive to our personhoods. Others don't share that privilege. For others, what you would call civil discourse is full of barbarism, small mindedness, and offense.
      - angersock 12y ago
        This polite yet sexist and racist comment is exactly the sort of civil discourse I'd like to see more of.
        solipsism 12y ago
        Ah yes, ye old "reverse Xism". Going for the oldies but goodies.
      - figglesonrails 12y ago
        I'm not trying to challenge you, just curious: what is an example of discourse that would be interpreted by someone with said privilege to be civil, yet interpreted by someone else without it to be barbaric, small-minded, offensive, etc. I get that you could have an objective discussion on religion that might be offensive, but does the fact that someone can find it offensive make it "offensive" in general, or does it make the person who isn't offended "privileged"? I'm just not sure exactly how to apply your statement to such scenarios -- could you explain a little more about what you mean? Would (could?), for example, objective data (e.g. CSV file, scientific study, statistics) have these qualities or just people's opinions on the objective data?
        solipsism 12y ago
        You need me to provide examples of sexism or racism in "civil" discourse? Maybe we don't live in the same society. Read the post that these comments are about. Only a minority of them are trolls. Many are otherwise reasonable and intelligent people saying ignorant and shitty things in calm, civil, flag-avoiding ways. If you don't notice it it's because you're privileged. If you're not, it's like you're swimming in it.

by sequoia 12y ago

angersock 12y ago

Sexism and racism are views on life, much like religion and capitalism--I don't have to agree with them without respecting them as views held by other people. Silly, stupid views that I disagree with and find counter-productive, but it is their right to think in that wrongheaded fashion and talk about it. I agree that making policy decisions based on racism and sexism, especially when the affected population has no alternative but to be subject to those decisions (say, no other place to look for work, no other police force to seek protection from, etc.), is wrong. That said, I find it just as wrong to brand other people as bad or evil because they've got some silly view. To put it quite crudely: The primary job of YC is not the policing of ideas and thoughts of people posting on HN beyond keeping things relatively civil.

comrh 12y ago
How can you have things "relatively civil" if people engage in sexism and racism?
- solipsism 12y ago
  Exactly. Parent wants HN kept relatively civil from his/her perspective. When it comes to other people's perspectives, no holds barred.
- angersock 12y ago
  There are ways of discussing and holding viewpoints that--in the strictest sense of the term--are racist or sexist. Talking about how best to accomodate maternity leave and schedule work is inherently sexist: it is an issue that does not apply to both men and women. Talking about how to handle racial profiling in targeted advertising is inherently racist: it is an issue that is tuned to your views about what messaging works best for a particular race. One can have these viewpoints and maintain civil discourse. One can even have viewpoints that are less pragmatic; e.g., violent crimes clearly committed more frequently by one race over others. In such a case, somebody can civilly point out numbers and studies that refute that viewpoint, and at the point one can either accede or agree to disagree. Being civil doesn't have anything to do with agreeing with people, or even being right.
  - solipsism 12y ago
    Do you happen to be a white and/or male? The only reason I ask (rhetorically, obviously -- please don't answer) is that, if you are, you might fail to realize that your position is one of privilege in our society. One of those many privileges shared by you and me is that what society considers common, civil discourse is very rarely offensive to our personhoods. Others don't share that privilege. For others, what you would call civil discourse is full of barbarism, small mindedness, and offense.
    - angersock 12y ago
      This polite yet sexist and racist comment is exactly the sort of civil discourse I'd like to see more of.
      - solipsism 12y ago
        Ah yes, ye old "reverse Xism". Going for the oldies but goodies.
    - figglesonrails 12y ago
      I'm not trying to challenge you, just curious: what is an example of discourse that would be interpreted by someone with said privilege to be civil, yet interpreted by someone else without it to be barbaric, small-minded, offensive, etc. I get that you could have an objective discussion on religion that might be offensive, but does the fact that someone can find it offensive make it "offensive" in general, or does it make the person who isn't offended "privileged"? I'm just not sure exactly how to apply your statement to such scenarios -- could you explain a little more about what you mean? Would (could?), for example, objective data (e.g. CSV file, scientific study, statistics) have these qualities or just people's opinions on the objective data?
      - solipsism 12y ago
        You need me to provide examples of sexism or racism in "civil" discourse? Maybe we don't live in the same society. Read the post that these comments are about. Only a minority of them are trolls. Many are otherwise reasonable and intelligent people saying ignorant and shitty things in calm, civil, flag-avoiding ways. If you don't notice it it's because you're privileged. If you're not, it's like you're swimming in it.