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Countries by population: China 1,367,030,000 United States 318,827,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population http://en.wi

by Aldo_MX 12y ago

Countries by population: China 1,367,030,000 United States 318,827,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population They do a lot more, you just saw a piece of the information.

arjie 12y ago
It doesn't make sense to look at total emissions, though. Because then you can create arbitrary groups and demand that they scale down. Should Europe cut emissions because they're so high or is it okay for Germany to stay at current levels because they're so low? Either per unit land area or per capita are better measures. The point is that if the Chinese had the standard of living that Americans have, everything would shoot through the roof. And considering that they don't, there's great potential for it to go wrong. The whole "China shoving CO2 into the atmosphere" could just as well be stated "Americans driving large SUVs that dump CO2 into the atmosphere". It doesn't matter, we've all got to do our part.
- Aldo_MX 12y ago
  What matters to the planet are the totals, I agree with your point that Americans have standards of living that needs to be improved, but I don't buy the argument that measures should be per unit land or per capita, because this is not the case. A large SUV won't dump as much CO2 as industrial manufacturing, for example.
  - arjie 12y ago
    Naturally what matters to the planet are the totals, but not going per-capita or per-unit-area is asking a disproportionate share from different people. And you can frame the problem using different groups in different ways so it is no longer well defined. Observe: 1. Members of the OECD must cut down on CO2 emissions. They far exceed China's emissions. Totals are what matter, and the OECD certainly has a higher total than China. China can't do anything so long as the OECD keeps pumping CO2 freely into the atmosphere. 2. North America must cut down on CO2 emissions. They far exceed that of South Asia. We can think of it this way. A certain standard of living requires some degree of pollution + cost. It is not productive to ask the other guy to endure a poorer standard of living while you live large just because he, as an individual, lives in a place with more individuals. You can ask for that, but it isn't going to happen.
pessimizer 12y ago
By that standard, you could also argue that China has far too many legs.

by Aldo_MX 12y ago

arjie 12y ago

It doesn't make sense to look at total emissions, though. Because then you can create arbitrary groups and demand that they scale down. Should Europe cut emissions because they're so high or is it okay for Germany to stay at current levels because they're so low? Either per unit land area or per capita are better measures. The point is that if the Chinese had the standard of living that Americans have, everything would shoot through the roof. And considering that they don't, there's great potential for it to go wrong. The whole "China shoving CO2 into the atmosphere" could just as well be stated "Americans driving large SUVs that dump CO2 into the atmosphere". It doesn't matter, we've all got to do our part.

Aldo_MX 12y ago
What matters to the planet are the totals, I agree with your point that Americans have standards of living that needs to be improved, but I don't buy the argument that measures should be per unit land or per capita, because this is not the case. A large SUV won't dump as much CO2 as industrial manufacturing, for example.
- arjie 12y ago
  Naturally what matters to the planet are the totals, but not going per-capita or per-unit-area is asking a disproportionate share from different people. And you can frame the problem using different groups in different ways so it is no longer well defined. Observe: 1. Members of the OECD must cut down on CO2 emissions. They far exceed China's emissions. Totals are what matter, and the OECD certainly has a higher total than China. China can't do anything so long as the OECD keeps pumping CO2 freely into the atmosphere. 2. North America must cut down on CO2 emissions. They far exceed that of South Asia. We can think of it this way. A certain standard of living requires some degree of pollution + cost. It is not productive to ask the other guy to endure a poorer standard of living while you live large just because he, as an individual, lives in a place with more individuals. You can ask for that, but it isn't going to happen.

pessimizer 12y ago

By that standard, you could also argue that China has far too many legs.