6 ms·

Normalization might actually take up more space, e.g. if you have to break out a column into a separate table and introduce a new primary key. The reason for n

by olavk 12y ago

Normalization might actually take up more space, e.g. if you have to break out a column into a separate table and introduce a new primary key. The reason for normalization is to preserve integrity of the data. If the same information occurs multiple times, it is possible to change it in one place and not the other, thereby introducing inconsistent data. This might have disastrous results depending on the application. As far as I know, data integrity is still pretty important even today. Redundancy should be a cause for concern regardless of the amount of storage available. Redundancy might be used deliberately eg. for caching or robustness, but even the you usually want to have one canonical version of the data.

collyw 12y ago
>As far as I know, data integrity is still pretty important even today. Tell that to the NoSQL hipsters.
- virmundi 12y ago
  For the love of (insert small thing here). NoSQL is not necessarily about throwing data integrity out the window. It's about re-organizing your data so that the things you care to be integrated are, such as a document with a sub-document or list. Pretty much every data store promotes some kind of data integrity. It might not be ACID data integrity. It might not care to enforce referential integrity outside of the document, or value, or whatever the modeling paradigm is. There is still integrity. If you don't like that, fine. Fair enough. Some might be okay with such a system. Name calling is of little benefit. It is a form of violence. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov. If you would like to learn more about the new data stores, see my short book, New Data: a Field Guide. https://leanpub.com/NewDataAFieldGuide https://leanpub.com/NewDataAFieldGuide. It's target at managers and other with little time to get a good idea.
  - phkahler 12y ago
    >> Name calling is of little benefit. It is a form of violence. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov. I hope you saw the irony in that.
    - virmundi 12y ago
      It's ironic in the Alanis Morissette way. However, it was more apt against the parent's comment. It did not say why NoSQL users are problematic, or even wrong. It just flat out lambasts anyone who walks away from the orthodoxy of ACID-SQL with an epithet. It truly was an incompetent comment. I'm using ArangoDB on my project. My reason is that honestly what I'm doing really is document-y. I could use MySQL or PostGRE, but I'm opting for something different for the sake something different. I do want to have integrity, though. Arango has integrity at the document level as well as distributed transactions. It doesn't enforce references though. I'm fine with that. What annoys me is when Internet commentator attack something new without at least a cursory show of reasoning.
      - davidw 12y ago
        > PostGRE It's called Postgres, or PostgreSQL, by the way.
      - phkahler 12y ago
        >> It's ironic in the Alanis Morissette way. No, it was calling name callers incompetent, which caused an unintended self reference :-) I suppose it's not irony, but I don't think it's as far from it as Alanis.
      - brudgers 12y ago
        When the internet annoys me, I try to hit the back button. Though sometimes, I just have to turn it off. [Disclaimer: this was written instead of dumping gasoline on the fire with the first version.]
  - imanaccount247 12y ago
    >Name calling is of little benefit. It is a form of violence. No it is not: the use of physical force to harm someone, to damage property, etc. "I don't like X" does not mean you can lie about what X is to try to convince others not to like it too.
    - virmundi 12y ago
      That's not what the parent did. He called them hipsters. Hipsters, at least in the HN circles, is not a complement. It's a disparaging term. He called them hipster without any force of argument. Also, definition 5: rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence
      - imanaccount247 12y ago
        >That's not what the parent did No, it is what you did. You dislike what he said, and rather than address it factually, you lied about it. Calling people hipsters is not violence.
        virmundi 12y ago
        Two questions: 1) where did I lie? 2) How is insulting not a form of violence? To critique a work as incompetent is not to disparage the person. It is to say they didn't think something through. In my post I said the NoSQL has a different definition of integrity. As a result, one has to use its terms in order to come to a conclusion about the validity of its claims. I took offense at the OP equivocating on integrity and then insulting people.
        imanaccount247 12y ago
        >where did I lie? Claiming the thing you don't like (calling people hipsters) is violence. >How is insulting not a form of violence? How is foot not a color?
  - solipsism 12y ago
    Taking Asimov quotes out of context is a form of violence.

by olavk 12y ago

collyw 12y ago

>As far as I know, data integrity is still pretty important even today. Tell that to the NoSQL hipsters.

virmundi 12y ago
For the love of (insert small thing here). NoSQL is not necessarily about throwing data integrity out the window. It's about re-organizing your data so that the things you care to be integrated are, such as a document with a sub-document or list. Pretty much every data store promotes some kind of data integrity. It might not be ACID data integrity. It might not care to enforce referential integrity outside of the document, or value, or whatever the modeling paradigm is. There is still integrity. If you don't like that, fine. Fair enough. Some might be okay with such a system. Name calling is of little benefit. It is a form of violence. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov. If you would like to learn more about the new data stores, see my short book, New Data: a Field Guide. https://leanpub.com/NewDataAFieldGuide https://leanpub.com/NewDataAFieldGuide. It's target at managers and other with little time to get a good idea.
- phkahler 12y ago
  >> Name calling is of little benefit. It is a form of violence. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov. I hope you saw the irony in that.
  - virmundi 12y ago
    It's ironic in the Alanis Morissette way. However, it was more apt against the parent's comment. It did not say why NoSQL users are problematic, or even wrong. It just flat out lambasts anyone who walks away from the orthodoxy of ACID-SQL with an epithet. It truly was an incompetent comment. I'm using ArangoDB on my project. My reason is that honestly what I'm doing really is document-y. I could use MySQL or PostGRE, but I'm opting for something different for the sake something different. I do want to have integrity, though. Arango has integrity at the document level as well as distributed transactions. It doesn't enforce references though. I'm fine with that. What annoys me is when Internet commentator attack something new without at least a cursory show of reasoning.
    - davidw 12y ago
      > PostGRE It's called Postgres, or PostgreSQL, by the way.
    - phkahler 12y ago
      >> It's ironic in the Alanis Morissette way. No, it was calling name callers incompetent, which caused an unintended self reference :-) I suppose it's not irony, but I don't think it's as far from it as Alanis.
    - brudgers 12y ago
      When the internet annoys me, I try to hit the back button. Though sometimes, I just have to turn it off. [Disclaimer: this was written instead of dumping gasoline on the fire with the first version.]
- imanaccount247 12y ago
  >Name calling is of little benefit. It is a form of violence. No it is not: the use of physical force to harm someone, to damage property, etc. "I don't like X" does not mean you can lie about what X is to try to convince others not to like it too.
  - virmundi 12y ago
    That's not what the parent did. He called them hipsters. Hipsters, at least in the HN circles, is not a complement. It's a disparaging term. He called them hipster without any force of argument. Also, definition 5: rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence
    - imanaccount247 12y ago
      >That's not what the parent did No, it is what you did. You dislike what he said, and rather than address it factually, you lied about it. Calling people hipsters is not violence.
      - virmundi 12y ago
        Two questions: 1) where did I lie? 2) How is insulting not a form of violence? To critique a work as incompetent is not to disparage the person. It is to say they didn't think something through. In my post I said the NoSQL has a different definition of integrity. As a result, one has to use its terms in order to come to a conclusion about the validity of its claims. I took offense at the OP equivocating on integrity and then insulting people.
        imanaccount247 12y ago
        >where did I lie? Claiming the thing you don't like (calling people hipsters) is violence. >How is insulting not a form of violence? How is foot not a color?
- solipsism 12y ago
  Taking Asimov quotes out of context is a form of violence.