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I don't know what it is that often makes successful people seem to lack basic empathy. I assume once you've succeeded following a certain path, you think the op

I don't know what it is that often makes successful people seem to lack basic empathy. I assume once you've succeeded following a certain path, you think the options that were available to you are available to anyone – if only they were good / smart / strong enough to make the most of them. Such smart people seem to lack a basic understanding that the world is a complex place, and social, cultural, and economic forces can have as much a role in shaping life trajectories as one's abilities and ambition. Or perhaps to put it another way, not all hardships are created equal.

threatofrain 12y ago
I think the issue is that even if we have some kind of magical wand to wave away all unmeritous structural conditions in society, wave away all life accidents and lotteries, we would still be left in a world of skewed wealth and opportunity due to natural biological variation and its accumulative effect in an economy with memory. Any empathy based primarily on an understanding of structural constraints and injustice will fall short in soothing the natural and irrevocable cruelty of meritocracy. We have left a difficult question unanswered: do stronger or more productive humans warrant a bigger piece of the world pie?
eterm 12y ago
They also seem to suddenly forget about survivorship bias. Because they've ended up on a good outcome they assume that all their choices along the way were the correct ones.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
sopooneo 12y ago
Many such people have had irrational beliefs. It's like a guy that has "system" for winning the lottery, and then does.
MCRed 12y ago
That's true, but at least in the USA-- where I've worked with two people who were in poverty when we met-- you can turn your life around. In my experience, with hard work on their part and a little bit of guidance it took them about 2-3 years to get into well paying (e.g.: well above minimum wage) jobs. The biggest thing inhibiting them before we worked together was growing up in a situation that seemed hopeless to the point where they couldn't see the path or the opportunity that was there for them.
- themoonbus 12y ago
  Well in that case, they were lucky to have you as a resource. Please don't think I'm saying hard work isn't important, but it definitely is not the only factor in succeeding.
  - MCRed 12y ago
    I agree. I was trying to say that what was obvious to me were things they didn't think of. That part of the problem is that people get conditioned to see their horizon as narrow. It cost me nothing to help these people (Really, I did give them loans and stuff like that over time, but the real help was not money.) Unfortunately, our society is focused on the welfare system, but the welfare system never illuminated the path for these people. Of course, this is based on my experience so it's anecdote.
- Retric 12y ago
  I suspect that both of them where working age, sane, healthy, without major addictions, reasonably intelligent, and had an acceptably clean background. Remove some or all of the above and even low levels of success become far less likely. That said, a friend of mine got a middle class job despite health issues, addiction, and with a somewhat shady past it's just much harder. However, he also had a fairly strong network to fall back on when things where tough which helps.
  - MCRed 12y ago
    One person lacked two of those factors, the other lacked one. In both cases they perceived those, and other factors as making the possibility of success unlikely. I managed to convince them otherwise, because in part, I have a similar background, and because they saw results.
jusssi 12y ago
Having basic empathy (i.e. not being a psycopath) might be an obstacle in getting rich quick. A wider range of options is available if you don't have to care what your actions cause to others.
- MCRed 12y ago
  That's an interesting hypothesis. Can you give some examples, that an individual in poverty, could use to get rich quick-- but only if they lacked empathy? I'm assuming these are things that would not land them in jail (because otherwise you'd need to argue that they won't get caught, which I think is a harder argument.) I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious if there is opportunity to become rich quickly, without ending up in jail, that I can't think of simply because I have empathy.
  - davesque 12y ago
    Starting an online gambling website, for one.
    - Crito 12y ago
      What do online gambling websites have to do with empathy, or lack of it? I mean, I guess in some jurisdictions it is illegal, so it would be a risky move, but what does that have to do with empathy? Lack of empathy for your future, potentially jailed, self I guess?
    - jfoster 12y ago
      I don't think that would be much easier than most startups. The same mechanics still apply. In fact, it's potentially harder due to being heavily regulated or illegal in lots of places. It also has lots of fraud risk.
  - bakareika 12y ago
    Whether you end up in jail depends on something else entirely. Let's say that our individual in question needs to lack empathy and be more able than an average cop in that location.
keithpeter 12y ago
"I don't know what it is that often makes successful people seem to lack basic empathy" Or lack a basic understanding of economics.
- MCRed 12y ago
  What economics is he lacking? Are you arguing that the economy is zero sum?
  - deeviant 12y ago
    Regardless of whether the economy is zero sum or not, it is trivial to see that not everybody can be rich. So even if everybody did the "right" thing, not everybody would be rich, or even wealthy. See: the world GDP divided by world population.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - yellow_and_gray 12y ago
      That's not exactly true. The world GDP divided by world population is a snapshot of the current state of the world today. It's not a snapshot of everybody doing the "right" thing. It's also not a snapshot of everybody doing the "right" thing in 1000 years from now. You are excluding possibilities.
    - Crito 12y ago
      But this conversation isn't about being rich. It is about not being poor. There is a world of difference between the two.
deeviant 12y ago
I think that the general lack of empathy in rich people is mainly related to the fact that to succeed, you generally do have to try hard, work diligently towards a goal, and generally be reasonably smart, however, these things are necessary but not sufficient. So rich people work their asses off and tend to assume that anybody who works their asses off will have the same result as they do, not realizing that you have to work you ass off, be in the right place in the right time, know the right people, grow up or have experience in the right environment and in general have all sorts of things fall into place in order to achieve a truly meteoric success.
yellow_and_gray 12y ago
How did you infer Jack Ma, a former school teacher, lacks basic empathy? And why so much hatred towards him in this thread? According to him, one of the reasons people lose is: Lacking understanding I'm not sure people in this thread are understanding enough. It's a little presumptuous to interpret that advice only as "not knowing things" but not as "not being understanding with people". Or are you saying Jack Ma didn't go through hardship? Lacking understanding the world is a complex place tends to be found in less smart people than the other way around. So what's your point? Or are you saying someone who tells the truth, and the truth turns out to be uncomfortable, is interpreted as lacking empathy?
- yellow_and_gray 12y ago
  The biggest thing I learned from all this downvoting is you can't guide people too fast. You have to tease them with questions. You have to first let them fall into their own traps. They learn better that way. Too high a dosage of anything can be harmful.
jrs99 12y ago
i wouldn't take it too seriously. It sounds more like a pep talk to me. it's the beginning of a motivational book in the making.
incision 12y ago
>'I assume once you've succeeded following a certain path, you think the options that were available to you are available to anyone – if only they were good / smart / strong enough to make the most of them.' I think this is actually worse than that. Strength, smarts and expertise are positives that are generally implied as possible to build or at least quantify. This is more an absolute negative judgement, shaming even "You have chosen to fail." as if success is as simple as flipping an intangible switch inside. I think it's hard in general to see the world through another's lens. I expect the very successful are particulary prone to this as they have both a strong, but narrow 'proof' of their own authority on the matter and an endless supply of people seeking their approval - not the sort to give criticism.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
melling 12y ago
You haven't established that Jack Ma is smart, or at least any smarter than average. Why do people always assume that rich people are smart? From what I've read, he worked very hard and took a few chances.
ghodith 12y ago
The opinion that rich people lack empathy feels like a very attractive answer for this question, be wary. Note: It is generally bad practice to assume negative attributes about someone just so they are easier to disagree with. It is practically attempting to disqualify an argument without actually having to addressing it. With that said I do not think it held much water in the first place, but I find it better off just saying that instead of trying to find some fault with the person who wrote it.
thathonkey 12y ago
It's a combination of being intellectually lazy+familial influence+narcissism+lack of perspective. Not really that complicated once you realize that all of this is reinforced and forms a feedback loop throughout these individuals' lives because they tend to congregate and be friends (thus, more likely to show their true feathers) with others who are just like them.

threatofrain 12y ago

I think the issue is that even if we have some kind of magical wand to wave away all unmeritous structural conditions in society, wave away all life accidents and lotteries, we would still be left in a world of skewed wealth and opportunity due to natural biological variation and its accumulative effect in an economy with memory. Any empathy based primarily on an understanding of structural constraints and injustice will fall short in soothing the natural and irrevocable cruelty of meritocracy. We have left a difficult question unanswered: do stronger or more productive humans warrant a bigger piece of the world pie?

eterm 12y ago

They also seem to suddenly forget about survivorship bias. Because they've ended up on a good outcome they assume that all their choices along the way were the correct ones.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

sopooneo 12y ago

Many such people have had irrational beliefs. It's like a guy that has "system" for winning the lottery, and then does.

MCRed 12y ago

That's true, but at least in the USA-- where I've worked with two people who were in poverty when we met-- you can turn your life around. In my experience, with hard work on their part and a little bit of guidance it took them about 2-3 years to get into well paying (e.g.: well above minimum wage) jobs. The biggest thing inhibiting them before we worked together was growing up in a situation that seemed hopeless to the point where they couldn't see the path or the opportunity that was there for them.

themoonbus 12y ago
Well in that case, they were lucky to have you as a resource. Please don't think I'm saying hard work isn't important, but it definitely is not the only factor in succeeding.
- MCRed 12y ago
  I agree. I was trying to say that what was obvious to me were things they didn't think of. That part of the problem is that people get conditioned to see their horizon as narrow. It cost me nothing to help these people (Really, I did give them loans and stuff like that over time, but the real help was not money.) Unfortunately, our society is focused on the welfare system, but the welfare system never illuminated the path for these people. Of course, this is based on my experience so it's anecdote.
Retric 12y ago
I suspect that both of them where working age, sane, healthy, without major addictions, reasonably intelligent, and had an acceptably clean background. Remove some or all of the above and even low levels of success become far less likely. That said, a friend of mine got a middle class job despite health issues, addiction, and with a somewhat shady past it's just much harder. However, he also had a fairly strong network to fall back on when things where tough which helps.
- MCRed 12y ago
  One person lacked two of those factors, the other lacked one. In both cases they perceived those, and other factors as making the possibility of success unlikely. I managed to convince them otherwise, because in part, I have a similar background, and because they saw results.

jusssi 12y ago

Having basic empathy (i.e. not being a psycopath) might be an obstacle in getting rich quick. A wider range of options is available if you don't have to care what your actions cause to others.

MCRed 12y ago
That's an interesting hypothesis. Can you give some examples, that an individual in poverty, could use to get rich quick-- but only if they lacked empathy? I'm assuming these are things that would not land them in jail (because otherwise you'd need to argue that they won't get caught, which I think is a harder argument.) I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious if there is opportunity to become rich quickly, without ending up in jail, that I can't think of simply because I have empathy.
- davesque 12y ago
  Starting an online gambling website, for one.
  - Crito 12y ago
    What do online gambling websites have to do with empathy, or lack of it? I mean, I guess in some jurisdictions it is illegal, so it would be a risky move, but what does that have to do with empathy? Lack of empathy for your future, potentially jailed, self I guess?
  - jfoster 12y ago
    I don't think that would be much easier than most startups. The same mechanics still apply. In fact, it's potentially harder due to being heavily regulated or illegal in lots of places. It also has lots of fraud risk.
- bakareika 12y ago
  Whether you end up in jail depends on something else entirely. Let's say that our individual in question needs to lack empathy and be more able than an average cop in that location.

keithpeter 12y ago

"I don't know what it is that often makes successful people seem to lack basic empathy" Or lack a basic understanding of economics.

MCRed 12y ago
What economics is he lacking? Are you arguing that the economy is zero sum?
- deeviant 12y ago
  Regardless of whether the economy is zero sum or not, it is trivial to see that not everybody can be rich. So even if everybody did the "right" thing, not everybody would be rich, or even wealthy. See: the world GDP divided by world population.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - yellow_and_gray 12y ago
    That's not exactly true. The world GDP divided by world population is a snapshot of the current state of the world today. It's not a snapshot of everybody doing the "right" thing. It's also not a snapshot of everybody doing the "right" thing in 1000 years from now. You are excluding possibilities.
  - Crito 12y ago
    But this conversation isn't about being rich. It is about not being poor. There is a world of difference between the two.

deeviant 12y ago

I think that the general lack of empathy in rich people is mainly related to the fact that to succeed, you generally do have to try hard, work diligently towards a goal, and generally be reasonably smart, however, these things are necessary but not sufficient. So rich people work their asses off and tend to assume that anybody who works their asses off will have the same result as they do, not realizing that you have to work you ass off, be in the right place in the right time, know the right people, grow up or have experience in the right environment and in general have all sorts of things fall into place in order to achieve a truly meteoric success.

yellow_and_gray 12y ago

How did you infer Jack Ma, a former school teacher, lacks basic empathy? And why so much hatred towards him in this thread? According to him, one of the reasons people lose is: Lacking understanding I'm not sure people in this thread are understanding enough. It's a little presumptuous to interpret that advice only as "not knowing things" but not as "not being understanding with people". Or are you saying Jack Ma didn't go through hardship? Lacking understanding the world is a complex place tends to be found in less smart people than the other way around. So what's your point? Or are you saying someone who tells the truth, and the truth turns out to be uncomfortable, is interpreted as lacking empathy?

yellow_and_gray 12y ago
The biggest thing I learned from all this downvoting is you can't guide people too fast. You have to tease them with questions. You have to first let them fall into their own traps. They learn better that way. Too high a dosage of anything can be harmful.

jrs99 12y ago

i wouldn't take it too seriously. It sounds more like a pep talk to me. it's the beginning of a motivational book in the making.

incision 12y ago

>'I assume once you've succeeded following a certain path, you think the options that were available to you are available to anyone – if only they were good / smart / strong enough to make the most of them.' I think this is actually worse than that. Strength, smarts and expertise are positives that are generally implied as possible to build or at least quantify. This is more an absolute negative judgement, shaming even "You have chosen to fail." as if success is as simple as flipping an intangible switch inside. I think it's hard in general to see the world through another's lens. I expect the very successful are particulary prone to this as they have both a strong, but narrow 'proof' of their own authority on the matter and an endless supply of people seeking their approval - not the sort to give criticism.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

melling 12y ago

You haven't established that Jack Ma is smart, or at least any smarter than average. Why do people always assume that rich people are smart? From what I've read, he worked very hard and took a few chances.

ghodith 12y ago

The opinion that rich people lack empathy feels like a very attractive answer for this question, be wary. Note: It is generally bad practice to assume negative attributes about someone just so they are easier to disagree with. It is practically attempting to disqualify an argument without actually having to addressing it. With that said I do not think it held much water in the first place, but I find it better off just saying that instead of trying to find some fault with the person who wrote it.

thathonkey 12y ago

It's a combination of being intellectually lazy+familial influence+narcissism+lack of perspective. Not really that complicated once you realize that all of this is reinforced and forms a feedback loop throughout these individuals' lives because they tend to congregate and be friends (thus, more likely to show their true feathers) with others who are just like them.