4 ms·

> Advances in software development are offensive to the practitioners of the technologies made obsolete. I couldn't get past that part. I've been a software e

> Advances in software development are offensive to the practitioners of the technologies made obsolete. I couldn't get past that part. I've been a software engineer for over 20 years, I love any technology that makes my job easier and allows me to more easily deliver more functionality with higher quality in my products. I can't understand where this mentality comes from.

mpweiher 12y ago
Well, I had a visual flash of insight on this topic when we got an SGI Crimson in the office. It came with the X-Windows documentation, I'd say at least 3 feet of shelf-space. The full NeXTStep documentation, including DPS, AppKit, system administration, NetInfo, etc was about a quarter of that. Again, the previous was just the windowing system, so at most around 1/10th of the scope of the NeXTSTep documentation, and no, the NeXTSTep docs weren't any less thorough or complete. So, if you've learned and maybe become an expert in the stuff that requires 3 feet of documentation, you're probably not too thrilled about finding out it's been for naught.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- kenfox 12y ago
  The X documentation was 2 volumes: 5 inches total. If you throw in Motif, Display Postscript (which came out in early 90s on SGI) and GL, it's still under a foot. I never had NeXTSTEP manuals, but I did have the OPENSTEP box set which was about a foot thick. I understand the point you are trying to make, but the truth is an expert would find a lot of similarity in those systems. Even today iOS development feels comfortable and similar to the work I did on SGIs in 93.
  - mpweiher 12y ago
    Hmm...there were a lot more than 2 volumes on that bookshelf. And again, that was just the windowing system. Amazon [1] suggests that there were at least 8 volumes. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Windows-System-Administrators-Definitive-Guides/dp/0937175838 http://www.amazon.com/Windows-System-Administrators-Definiti...
    - kenfox 12y ago
      You are seriously trying to add up all the O'Reilly books and compare that to documentation published by NeXT? I think I still have my books at home somewhere. They were by Digital Press if I recall.
      - mpweiher 12y ago
        That's what we were provided by SGI as the official documentation. I just had a look, and it seems that this was common (see the highlight): http://books.google.de/books?id=d8tByjvMmIwC&pg=PR37&lpg=PR37&dq=official+x-windows+documentation+o'reilly&source=bl&ots=moQDks83K6&sig=luh_yofCT0Oh57u7lyr0liqiATM&hl=de&sa=X&ei=87QnVPmHEJPfaJb6gKgL&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=official%20x-windows%20documentation%20o'reilly&f=false http://books.google.de/books?id=d8tByjvMmIwC&pg=PR37&lpg=PR3...
        kenfox 12y ago
        The 2 volumes of authoritative X documentation came from Digital Press. X Window System by Scheifler, Gettys and Newman. X Window System Toolkit by Asente and Swick. If you read further in the acknowledgements that you quote, you'll see them listed as primary sources. My copies take up 3.25" on the shelf. I know we had a lot of the O'Reilly X books floating around. Nobody ever read them, but we felt weird throwing books away. You're right that they got bundled by vendors--I think HP and Sun eventually bundled stuff too. The bundling decision was probably more about trying to justify insanely high workstation prices than an indictment of the complexity of X.

mpweiher 12y ago

Well, I had a visual flash of insight on this topic when we got an SGI Crimson in the office. It came with the X-Windows documentation, I'd say at least 3 feet of shelf-space. The full NeXTStep documentation, including DPS, AppKit, system administration, NetInfo, etc was about a quarter of that. Again, the previous was just the windowing system, so at most around 1/10th of the scope of the NeXTSTep documentation, and no, the NeXTSTep docs weren't any less thorough or complete. So, if you've learned and maybe become an expert in the stuff that requires 3 feet of documentation, you're probably not too thrilled about finding out it's been for naught.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
kenfox 12y ago
The X documentation was 2 volumes: 5 inches total. If you throw in Motif, Display Postscript (which came out in early 90s on SGI) and GL, it's still under a foot. I never had NeXTSTEP manuals, but I did have the OPENSTEP box set which was about a foot thick. I understand the point you are trying to make, but the truth is an expert would find a lot of similarity in those systems. Even today iOS development feels comfortable and similar to the work I did on SGIs in 93.
- mpweiher 12y ago
  Hmm...there were a lot more than 2 volumes on that bookshelf. And again, that was just the windowing system. Amazon [1] suggests that there were at least 8 volumes. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Windows-System-Administrators-Definitive-Guides/dp/0937175838 http://www.amazon.com/Windows-System-Administrators-Definiti...
  - kenfox 12y ago
    You are seriously trying to add up all the O'Reilly books and compare that to documentation published by NeXT? I think I still have my books at home somewhere. They were by Digital Press if I recall.
    - mpweiher 12y ago
      That's what we were provided by SGI as the official documentation. I just had a look, and it seems that this was common (see the highlight): http://books.google.de/books?id=d8tByjvMmIwC&pg=PR37&lpg=PR37&dq=official+x-windows+documentation+o'reilly&source=bl&ots=moQDks83K6&sig=luh_yofCT0Oh57u7lyr0liqiATM&hl=de&sa=X&ei=87QnVPmHEJPfaJb6gKgL&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=official%20x-windows%20documentation%20o'reilly&f=false http://books.google.de/books?id=d8tByjvMmIwC&pg=PR37&lpg=PR3...
      - kenfox 12y ago
        The 2 volumes of authoritative X documentation came from Digital Press. X Window System by Scheifler, Gettys and Newman. X Window System Toolkit by Asente and Swick. If you read further in the acknowledgements that you quote, you'll see them listed as primary sources. My copies take up 3.25" on the shelf. I know we had a lot of the O'Reilly X books floating around. Nobody ever read them, but we felt weird throwing books away. You're right that they got bundled by vendors--I think HP and Sun eventually bundled stuff too. The bundling decision was probably more about trying to justify insanely high workstation prices than an indictment of the complexity of X.