4 ms·

At the end of the semester, students who enjoyed the course should just tip their professors. Adding a real free-market incentive would increase class size and

by naner 12y ago

At the end of the semester, students who enjoyed the course should just tip their professors. Adding a real free-market incentive would increase class size and teaching quality, right? Let's let the invisible hand of the market decide First of all, broke college students certainly aren't going to 'tip' their professors. I guess perhaps you're thinking part of tuition will be used for this? Still, what students 'enjoy' is not necessarily what is most beneficial for them in a college course. I think you're setting up the incentives wrong.

userbinator 12y ago
Still, what students 'enjoy' is not necessarily what is most beneficial for them in a college course. I think you're setting up the incentives wrong. Exactly. The majority of them just want the highest grades with the least effort, and the professors who will quite naturally want to get tipped more, will optimise toward that. It'll create a situation where teaching next-to-nothing and giving everyone perfect scores gets the highest rewards; i.e. not much of an education.
- WalterBright 12y ago
  That may be true for some, but not for me. Not only was I paying most of the tuition bill, I selected classes based on what I though was knowledge I needed for the career I wanted. An "easy A" didn't figure into it. I wasn't interested in paying lots of money for nothing. I also wasn't interested in attending a university known for easy grading.
  - watwut 12y ago
    Quoting article: "There's an intriguing exception to the pattern: Classes full of highly skilled students do give highly skilled teachers high marks. Perhaps the smartest kids do see the benefit of being pushed." Maybe you are in that "highly skilled" group. Unfortunately, average student have different behavior.
    - WalterBright 12y ago
      I don't know if that necessary corresponds to being highly skilled or not. But I like being pushed hard in a class - it brings out the best in me. Easy A's just engender boredom and contempt. I remember once being pushed to enter an athletic competition where the field was not so good. "It'll be an easy win for you" I was told. That made me completely uninterested. I entered one where I was told "You'll be in way over your head." and I was. I came in last - but there was never a more satisfying one to me, because it was my best job ever, and just being on the field with those other excellent competitors was exciting. An analogy would be just qualifying for the Olympic team, even if you have no hope of getting a gold.
  - userbinator 12y ago
    Same here; I was referring to the majority of students for whom "getting out of here with high grades" is their motivation. On HN, I imagine a significant number of us here are sufficiently motivated to learning even without anyone to remind them of its importance.
    - WalterBright 12y ago
      > students for whom "getting out of here with high grades" is their motivation What a sad way to live, and I wouldn't hire one of them, either. I found the course catalog at college to be exciting reading, and was frustrated to be only able to take a small fraction of what was available. I remember several "aha!" moments where suddenly I understood something that had always baffled me, and felt like I'd been given the keys to the universe.
- patio11 12y ago
  Notice that if you buy into the signaling theory of education this behavior is instantly explained. The primary purpose of college is achieved by the time you get an offer letter. "We certify that you have a high enough IQ and conscientiousness to get into our school." Spiffy, job guaranteed! Now you get four years to find yourself and drink a lot. But for some reason you are constantly beset by atheist monks who think you should be praying more.
icelancer 12y ago
>Still, what students 'enjoy' is not necessarily what is most beneficial for them in a college course. I think you're setting up the incentives wrong. This is already overwhelmingly the case in an attempt to secure more and more student loan funds.
pfooti 12y ago
At the end of the semester, students who enjoyed the course should just tip their professors. Adding a real free-market incentive would increase class size and teaching quality, right? Let's let the invisible hand of the market decide He said sarcastically. Ah well, I guess that's a lesson learned re: snark and downvotes. There's a lot to say about the 'signaling' point made upthread, and I agree with that. Anyway, the important issue here is that course evaluations can serve two purposes. One purpose is the structural elimination of "bad" instructors, by linking promotion and retention decisions to course evaluations at the departmental and/or university level. I can tell you from my perspective, course evaluations have never realistically served this purpose at the two institutions where I taught. The other purpose is to provide concrete feedback to the instructor so that they can improve their teaching the next semester. Official course evaluations are rarely useful for this purpose either, and in my experience ask the wrong questions (and at the wrong time - wouldn't it be better to get feedback from your students after three weeks so you can make course corrections?) So good professors tend to supplement official feedback forms with feedback instruments of their own design.

by naner 12y ago

At the end of the semester, students who enjoyed the course should just tip their professors. Adding a real free-market incentive would increase class size and teaching quality, right? Let's let the invisible hand of the market decide First of all, broke college students certainly aren't going to 'tip' their professors. I guess perhaps you're thinking part of tuition will be used for this? Still, what students 'enjoy' is not necessarily what is most beneficial for them in a college course. I think you're setting up the incentives wrong.

userbinator 12y ago

Still, what students 'enjoy' is not necessarily what is most beneficial for them in a college course. I think you're setting up the incentives wrong. Exactly. The majority of them just want the highest grades with the least effort, and the professors who will quite naturally want to get tipped more, will optimise toward that. It'll create a situation where teaching next-to-nothing and giving everyone perfect scores gets the highest rewards; i.e. not much of an education.

WalterBright 12y ago
That may be true for some, but not for me. Not only was I paying most of the tuition bill, I selected classes based on what I though was knowledge I needed for the career I wanted. An "easy A" didn't figure into it. I wasn't interested in paying lots of money for nothing. I also wasn't interested in attending a university known for easy grading.
- watwut 12y ago
  Quoting article: "There's an intriguing exception to the pattern: Classes full of highly skilled students do give highly skilled teachers high marks. Perhaps the smartest kids do see the benefit of being pushed." Maybe you are in that "highly skilled" group. Unfortunately, average student have different behavior.
  - WalterBright 12y ago
    I don't know if that necessary corresponds to being highly skilled or not. But I like being pushed hard in a class - it brings out the best in me. Easy A's just engender boredom and contempt. I remember once being pushed to enter an athletic competition where the field was not so good. "It'll be an easy win for you" I was told. That made me completely uninterested. I entered one where I was told "You'll be in way over your head." and I was. I came in last - but there was never a more satisfying one to me, because it was my best job ever, and just being on the field with those other excellent competitors was exciting. An analogy would be just qualifying for the Olympic team, even if you have no hope of getting a gold.
- userbinator 12y ago
  Same here; I was referring to the majority of students for whom "getting out of here with high grades" is their motivation. On HN, I imagine a significant number of us here are sufficiently motivated to learning even without anyone to remind them of its importance.
  - WalterBright 12y ago
    > students for whom "getting out of here with high grades" is their motivation What a sad way to live, and I wouldn't hire one of them, either. I found the course catalog at college to be exciting reading, and was frustrated to be only able to take a small fraction of what was available. I remember several "aha!" moments where suddenly I understood something that had always baffled me, and felt like I'd been given the keys to the universe.
patio11 12y ago
Notice that if you buy into the signaling theory of education this behavior is instantly explained. The primary purpose of college is achieved by the time you get an offer letter. "We certify that you have a high enough IQ and conscientiousness to get into our school." Spiffy, job guaranteed! Now you get four years to find yourself and drink a lot. But for some reason you are constantly beset by atheist monks who think you should be praying more.

icelancer 12y ago

>Still, what students 'enjoy' is not necessarily what is most beneficial for them in a college course. I think you're setting up the incentives wrong. This is already overwhelmingly the case in an attempt to secure more and more student loan funds.

pfooti 12y ago

At the end of the semester, students who enjoyed the course should just tip their professors. Adding a real free-market incentive would increase class size and teaching quality, right? Let's let the invisible hand of the market decide He said sarcastically. Ah well, I guess that's a lesson learned re: snark and downvotes. There's a lot to say about the 'signaling' point made upthread, and I agree with that. Anyway, the important issue here is that course evaluations can serve two purposes. One purpose is the structural elimination of "bad" instructors, by linking promotion and retention decisions to course evaluations at the departmental and/or university level. I can tell you from my perspective, course evaluations have never realistically served this purpose at the two institutions where I taught. The other purpose is to provide concrete feedback to the instructor so that they can improve their teaching the next semester. Official course evaluations are rarely useful for this purpose either, and in my experience ask the wrong questions (and at the wrong time - wouldn't it be better to get feedback from your students after three weeks so you can make course corrections?) So good professors tend to supplement official feedback forms with feedback instruments of their own design.