3 ms·

I am really suggesting to try some classic Scheme course first, like my favorite CS61A by Brian Harvey, or that wonderful Racket-based course (what's the diffe

I am really suggesting to try some classic Scheme course first, like my favorite CS61A by Brian Harvey, or that wonderful Racket-based course (what's the difference?) on Coursera by Gregor Kiczales (which is worth watching even if you are mere a brainwashed Java dev). Another way is through pg's books, especially, of course, "On Lisp" and Arc tutorial and then arc.arc (original version from the 2009 arc3.tar which isn't cluttered with silly docstrings and other nonsense). There is also the way of CL. For that there is pg's ANSI CL, but before that a much better "CL Language Concepts" from Symbolics (pdfs are available from bitsavers). Then, perhaps, one will have slightly different view of what Clojure is really. Yes, it is a real marvel of software craftsmanship, especially that it was originally a solo effort, but no, there is no miracles in it.)

ExpiredLink 12y ago
> even if you are mere a brainwashed Java dev I see where you're coming from, SLW.
zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
> which is worth watching even if you are mere a brainwashed Java dev And people wonder why Lisp advocates have such a bad reputation.
AlexeyBrin 12y ago
which is worth watching even if you are mere a brainwashed Java dev and this is why so many people are repelled by the Lisp (or Scheme) evangelism. I don't particularly like Java, but I use it for Android development. Calling people brainwashed because they are using Java is simply rude.
- dschiptsov 12y ago
  In my opinion Java is the biggest fraud and waste in the history of IT (next comes SAP) - nothing but hype, ignorant parroting of silly memes by "managers" (so-called bandwagon and peer effects) lies, and taking advantage of ignorant. People who "know no better" (cannot even visit the rosettacode.org, dismissed plain old C - these evil pointers!, Erlang - functional programming is for academy, or CL - not an enterprise level, etc, etc) are, well, brainwashed. I am not blaming the people, I am just describing reality as I see it, and my view is by no means new or even "original". Java was just a way to make money (in 2000s) like "derivatives traders" in the last 10 years. Same manipulations, same techniques. For example, almost all of the very few popular apps I have installed on my Nexus4 are NDK apps - FB, Viber, Skype - you name it.
  - AlexeyBrin 12y ago
    Java is just a programming tool and, while I would have preferred to use C++14 for all my Android projects, it is what it is (NDK make sense only for heavy duty applications). Now, imagine for a second that you are a junior programmer, that only knows Java. You've heard of this thing called Clojure and you want to read and learn more about it. What would you think if someone called you brainwashed just because you only know Java ? For most people this means EOD (end of discussion). Calling someone brainwashed just because he doesn't have your level of expertise with other languages will just make it ignore the good parts of your comment. In the end it is about what is more important to you: vent some steam about how much you hate Java or guide someone to learn more about a Lisp language.
    - dschiptsov 12y ago
      Not so long ago a student of a good school in US would know Scheme and C, not Java or Python, and the move to Java as the language for teaching CS is, in my opinion, the result of the same regrettable process of brainwashing. btw, I never talk Java issues in a context of a personally, only in a broader sense of a "social phenomena" partly explained by well studied "effects" in social psychology. Unfortunately, Clojure will not be suitable for Android development in observable future exactly because "Java" cannot fulfill its promises - Clojure's runtime is "too heavy and too slow" (too wasteful) to run even on a newest smartphone hardware, and in this, again, so-called reality re-asserted itself.

ExpiredLink 12y ago

> even if you are mere a brainwashed Java dev I see where you're coming from, SLW.

zak_mc_kracken 12y ago

> which is worth watching even if you are mere a brainwashed Java dev And people wonder why Lisp advocates have such a bad reputation.

AlexeyBrin 12y ago

which is worth watching even if you are mere a brainwashed Java dev and this is why so many people are repelled by the Lisp (or Scheme) evangelism. I don't particularly like Java, but I use it for Android development. Calling people brainwashed because they are using Java is simply rude.

dschiptsov 12y ago
In my opinion Java is the biggest fraud and waste in the history of IT (next comes SAP) - nothing but hype, ignorant parroting of silly memes by "managers" (so-called bandwagon and peer effects) lies, and taking advantage of ignorant. People who "know no better" (cannot even visit the rosettacode.org, dismissed plain old C - these evil pointers!, Erlang - functional programming is for academy, or CL - not an enterprise level, etc, etc) are, well, brainwashed. I am not blaming the people, I am just describing reality as I see it, and my view is by no means new or even "original". Java was just a way to make money (in 2000s) like "derivatives traders" in the last 10 years. Same manipulations, same techniques. For example, almost all of the very few popular apps I have installed on my Nexus4 are NDK apps - FB, Viber, Skype - you name it.
- AlexeyBrin 12y ago
  Java is just a programming tool and, while I would have preferred to use C++14 for all my Android projects, it is what it is (NDK make sense only for heavy duty applications). Now, imagine for a second that you are a junior programmer, that only knows Java. You've heard of this thing called Clojure and you want to read and learn more about it. What would you think if someone called you brainwashed just because you only know Java ? For most people this means EOD (end of discussion). Calling someone brainwashed just because he doesn't have your level of expertise with other languages will just make it ignore the good parts of your comment. In the end it is about what is more important to you: vent some steam about how much you hate Java or guide someone to learn more about a Lisp language.
  - dschiptsov 12y ago
    Not so long ago a student of a good school in US would know Scheme and C, not Java or Python, and the move to Java as the language for teaching CS is, in my opinion, the result of the same regrettable process of brainwashing. btw, I never talk Java issues in a context of a personally, only in a broader sense of a "social phenomena" partly explained by well studied "effects" in social psychology. Unfortunately, Clojure will not be suitable for Android development in observable future exactly because "Java" cannot fulfill its promises - Clojure's runtime is "too heavy and too slow" (too wasteful) to run even on a newest smartphone hardware, and in this, again, so-called reality re-asserted itself.