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>>That was no more slavery than what was happening in the West in the same time Oh, please... Extraordinary claims need extraordinary support. Post a careful c

>>That was no more slavery than what was happening in the West in the same time Oh, please... Extraordinary claims need extraordinary support. Post a careful comparison. We are back to the original point -- people had to be put in prison (with guards that shot people fleeing!) to keep them in. The borders and information were open in the West. >>have you seen Pussy Riot yourself? I've seen that in civilized countries, we don't throw people in jail for being blasphemous. (And what in H-ll has artistic quality have to do with that?!) >> I'll claim that the sources listed on that page are BS w/o even looking As I guessed: "Or go the popular way and claim that Wikipedia and/or all the academic research are in a conspiracy..." Well, I have better things to do than argue with people claiming Wikipedia is a conspiracy which misrepresent the present state of research -- without knowing the subject enough to recognize the sources!! That is a basic test for non serious debaters, sorry. So bye.

mlvljr 12y ago
>> Extraordinary claims need extraordinary support. Then just do it yourself regarding the "Eastern Europeans enslaved by Soviet leaders" one then! As illegally crossing a border will get you detained or fired at in almost any place now and ever, just as politically-motivated oppression is not a Soviet invention (i. e. McCarthyism, for ex.). Regarding the emigration-preventing regulations, that may be a perfectly understandable brain-drain prevention practice stemming from the difference in income equalities between the blocks (a qualified worker would sometimes earn more than the factory's manager to the East of the curtain, a scientist with a well-established career earned enough, too, but less than his colleague on the other side, most probably, and a humble cleaning lady was a complete different story, I'm sure). Speaking of seeing PR, and the civilized practice: the folks in question are not "a rock band who dared to say no to the dictator from a Cathedral stage (in music!) and were imprisoned", but rather a group of political hooligans, known initially for a group sex orgy in a museum (and an another alike event, which I'll not describe here), who then performed several rush-into-cathedral-and-start-cursing-and-jumping-around-with-a-guitar (sound to be overlayed later) acts, until finally getting whoever saw this pissed off enough for the freaks to be handled to the police (and then, the infamous trial happened). (coming from your original "See PR" -- you may indeed go and see the pictures). Regarding renowned Wikipedia researchers in question -- you don't have to be one to highly doubt their claims: with nearly every family in ex-USSR losing members during what is called The Great Patriotic War here (the total losses are officially > 20 M), both the collective consciousness of the nation, the witnesses still alive, and their families share the memories of the losses' severity. Same applies to the 1936-39 repression era (< 2 M executed being the official figure), the ratio of "official figure" / "perceived impact", most importantly, seeming to be close to that in the case of the War. Now, the events costing 60 M in human lives would have roughly x3 the impact of the War, and still there's nothing like that -- which brings to a conclusion of roughly a 60/20 * 20/2 == 30x hoax! And don't you dare to say that living here, we "don't know the subject enough" :)
- BugBrother 12y ago
  >>illegally crossing a border will get you detained or fired at in almost any place now and ever, Leaving a border will generally not make soldiers shoot at you from the country you leave. Being that locked in only happens to slaves and other prisoners. And I think you know that. >>Regarding renowned Wikipedia researchers (I already noted that you learn differently in your schools, like most all other countries with recent atrocities in their history.) Sorry, if you argue against wikipedia without even looking at research references I can't take you seriously. I didn't read the rest.
  - mlvljr 12y ago
    >> Leaving a border will generally not make soldiers shoot at you from the country you leave. Is it really so? Which countries can be left safely this way, in view of the border patrols? :) >> I didn't read the rest. Arguing through not listening may indeed be an effective (albeit a solipsistic) strategy, but not in a public discussion :) "Your schools covering up recent atrocities!", and Russian leaders historically outperforming the West in enslaving nations -- is that really what you've been taught? Again, what cover up are we talking of? You very much cannot sell a 60 M dead from famine story to anyone here, due to presence of alive witnesses -- but it obviously flies much better over the curtain and far away. What is taught builds on information declassified during the 90-ies, when "dozens of millions dead" claim was fashionable, but found no supporting ground, to quite a surprise of those insisting on access to relevant documents and their publication.
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      >> Which countries can be left safely this way, in view of the border patrols? :) You knowingly misrepresent my point. That is the only argument you have left. Sad.:-( People couldn't leave East Europe freely, unlike the democratic world. (Hell, Romania charged Germany/Israel to let German speaking and Jewish Romanians leave.) And if they tried anyway, they were shot down. Again -- I stopped reading after the first paragraph. If you hand wave at references with links to real research, you're just not serious.

mlvljr 12y ago

>> Extraordinary claims need extraordinary support. Then just do it yourself regarding the "Eastern Europeans enslaved by Soviet leaders" one then! As illegally crossing a border will get you detained or fired at in almost any place now and ever, just as politically-motivated oppression is not a Soviet invention (i. e. McCarthyism, for ex.). Regarding the emigration-preventing regulations, that may be a perfectly understandable brain-drain prevention practice stemming from the difference in income equalities between the blocks (a qualified worker would sometimes earn more than the factory's manager to the East of the curtain, a scientist with a well-established career earned enough, too, but less than his colleague on the other side, most probably, and a humble cleaning lady was a complete different story, I'm sure). Speaking of seeing PR, and the civilized practice: the folks in question are not "a rock band who dared to say no to the dictator from a Cathedral stage (in music!) and were imprisoned", but rather a group of political hooligans, known initially for a group sex orgy in a museum (and an another alike event, which I'll not describe here), who then performed several rush-into-cathedral-and-start-cursing-and-jumping-around-with-a-guitar (sound to be overlayed later) acts, until finally getting whoever saw this pissed off enough for the freaks to be handled to the police (and then, the infamous trial happened). (coming from your original "See PR" -- you may indeed go and see the pictures). Regarding renowned Wikipedia researchers in question -- you don't have to be one to highly doubt their claims: with nearly every family in ex-USSR losing members during what is called The Great Patriotic War here (the total losses are officially > 20 M), both the collective consciousness of the nation, the witnesses still alive, and their families share the memories of the losses' severity. Same applies to the 1936-39 repression era (< 2 M executed being the official figure), the ratio of "official figure" / "perceived impact", most importantly, seeming to be close to that in the case of the War. Now, the events costing 60 M in human lives would have roughly x3 the impact of the War, and still there's nothing like that -- which brings to a conclusion of roughly a 60/20 * 20/2 == 30x hoax! And don't you dare to say that living here, we "don't know the subject enough" :)

BugBrother 12y ago
>>illegally crossing a border will get you detained or fired at in almost any place now and ever, Leaving a border will generally not make soldiers shoot at you from the country you leave. Being that locked in only happens to slaves and other prisoners. And I think you know that. >>Regarding renowned Wikipedia researchers (I already noted that you learn differently in your schools, like most all other countries with recent atrocities in their history.) Sorry, if you argue against wikipedia without even looking at research references I can't take you seriously. I didn't read the rest.
- mlvljr 12y ago
  >> Leaving a border will generally not make soldiers shoot at you from the country you leave. Is it really so? Which countries can be left safely this way, in view of the border patrols? :) >> I didn't read the rest. Arguing through not listening may indeed be an effective (albeit a solipsistic) strategy, but not in a public discussion :) "Your schools covering up recent atrocities!", and Russian leaders historically outperforming the West in enslaving nations -- is that really what you've been taught? Again, what cover up are we talking of? You very much cannot sell a 60 M dead from famine story to anyone here, due to presence of alive witnesses -- but it obviously flies much better over the curtain and far away. What is taught builds on information declassified during the 90-ies, when "dozens of millions dead" claim was fashionable, but found no supporting ground, to quite a surprise of those insisting on access to relevant documents and their publication.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    >> Which countries can be left safely this way, in view of the border patrols? :) You knowingly misrepresent my point. That is the only argument you have left. Sad.:-( People couldn't leave East Europe freely, unlike the democratic world. (Hell, Romania charged Germany/Israel to let German speaking and Jewish Romanians leave.) And if they tried anyway, they were shot down. Again -- I stopped reading after the first paragraph. If you hand wave at references with links to real research, you're just not serious.