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>'There are already reports of CFLs and LED lamps burning out long before their rated lifetimes were reached.' To go off on a tangent... I have a couple of CF

>'There are already reports of CFLs and LED lamps burning out long before their rated lifetimes were reached.' To go off on a tangent... I have a couple of CFLs that have been going since 1997 in my first apartment while most of the CFLs I purchased after my last move in 2009 have burned out. None of my LEDs have gone. Not the ridiculously expensive ones from a few years ago or the current "almost, but not quite cheap enough for the whole house" ones I've been testing out. My impression is that there's a sweet spot in relatively early adoption for many technologies when you can get nearly all the eventual performance with much higher reliability. A point where manufacturers are perhaps over-engineering or at least have not yet dialed in their cost-cutting trade-offs. Of course, whether this is worth anything depends on the context - my 2004 Linksys AP, 1997 bulbs and 1999 DVD player are fine for my purposes, but my tank-like 2009 Motorola Droid - not so much.

sliverstorm 12y ago
Usage patterns are important with CFL's. They are sensitive to many on/off cycles, and last longest when they burn continually. So, it might be interesting to take a moment and consider whether your usage patterns have shifted markedly.
- danielweber 12y ago
  Oddly, the ones I abuse the most -- leaving them outdoors in enclosures, frequent on/off -- have lastest the longest, and those I've simply put in normal sockets have failed the quickest.
  - whitten 12y ago
    I seem to recall there is an issue with CFL bulbs that has to do with ambient temperature. Recessed sockets get hotter, and shorten CFL life considerably.
    - virtue3 12y ago
      The circuitry of CFLs (like the circuitry on LEDs) is where the heat is generated (basically the base of the bulb) and can _really_ kill the lifetime of the bulb if they're up in recessed indoor lighting environments.
- derekp7 12y ago
  Also, CFL's installed in ceiling fixtures have two problems -- the heat goes up into the circuitry (many CFL packages I've seen said not to install upside down), and anyone stomping around on the floor above will induce vibrations which shorten life.
- vidarh 12y ago
  Also, whatever the rated voltage for your power, don't assume it will be exact, and different voltage can be very noticeable on bulb lifetime. If bulbs keep popping it may be worth checking the voltage of your electricity supply. Ours is nearly 10% higher than it should be...
dpeck 12y ago
I noticed this as well, especially with CFLs from Phillips.
Osmium 12y ago
I believe it's typically the heat sinks/packaging etc. that go with the LED bulbs, long before the crystals themselves do (which are the most expensive part, though they can fail too).
philwelch 12y ago
Inkjet printers from the 90's are also much more durable and overengineered than anything you'll buy today.
- cecilpl 12y ago
  More like, the inkjet printers from the 90's that aren't in landfills yet are very durable. There were lots of 90s era printers that were just as trashy as the ones made today.
  - UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
    Ah yea, good old Survivorship bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
  - Roboprog 12y ago
    My early 90s HP InkJet was a workhorse, as was the NEC laser printer I had (though it had driver issues). My computers stopped coming with a parallel port.
  - Decade 12y ago
    My early 90's Canon eventually leaked all over. It was a big mess. My Epsons clogged and prompted me to do futile head cleaning routines that wasted a lot of paper. My HP was sort of okay, but it turns out that I don't print enough. Any inkjet would clog under my normal use.
- Istof 12y ago
  I would say that over-engineered goods are the ones that last just long enough (and not any more) so that most customers don't feel like they were ripped off when they need to replace the product. The products that you are refering to were under-engineered (they were engineered on the safe side).
  - thrownaway2424 12y ago
    Yep. As my college professors used to repeat, anyone can build a building that stands up, but only an engineer can build a building that barely stands up.
justin66 12y ago
I lost an expensive (and weak) GE LED lamp I bought a few years ago. In fairness, they weren't rated for a super long lifetime - or at least they didn't have a very long warranty.
ekianjo 12y ago
> 'There are already reports of CFLs and LED lamps burning out long before their rated lifetimes were reached.' What's more worrying is that Governments have outlawed traditional light bulbs in favor of LED or CFL ones. If that's not some powerful lobby, I don't know what it is.
- warbastard 12y ago
  In the EU, incandescent bulbs were banned as part of a directive [1] to reduce energy use, as only 10% of the energy put in was converted to light. That sounds like a sensible move to me rather than lobbying. In the UK, CFL bulbs were also subsidised and/or given out free to households by the energy companies before incandescent bulbs were banned. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/aug/31/lightbulbs-incandescent-europe http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/aug/31/lightbulb...
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    > In the EU, incandescent bulbs were banned as part of a directive [1] to reduce energy use, as only 10% of the energy put in was converted to light. That sounds like a sensible move to me rather than lobbying. If it makes economical sense, let consumers judge for themselves. The cost at purchase of LEDs / CFLs is way higher than traditional light bulbs. Everyone should be able to have access to cheap lights.
    - Tomte 12y ago
      As long as we haven't figured out and implemented a way to align economical and ecological sense, your suggestion is a non-starter.
      - ekianjo 12y ago
        Haha. We are not going to consume LESS energy in the future, unless you want to live in poor conditions. The working assumption is how do we create more, cheaper and in a cleaner way. There's a bunch of papers out there on how energy consumption and level of life are closely related.
crististm 12y ago
In my building, administration changed last year all the floor lamps with CFL. From a total of 19 bulbs, 2 burned out. They stay on all day long. That means 10% of the bulbs burned before reaching 9000 hours. The rest seems to be unaffected. However, _older_ lamps (made > 15, 20 years ago) used to last much longer than two or three years on all the time. I know this because I took notice of this at the moment. I have incandescent bulbs that are more than 10 years old, that burn 2-3 hours a day today. Incandescent bulbs I bought in the last years typically lasted less than 1-2 years at a similar burning rate. I saw a change in bulb quality when the local industry died (east Europe) and all you could get were Osram from Poland or Phillips. In my opinion, the reaches of the cartel are still strong.
- gambiting 12y ago
  In my opinion, people want to pay less and less each year, which leads to using cheaper materials. 15 years ago a CFL cost a very decent amount of money, I am sure that if you adjusted the price for inflation it would cost at least 4x of what they cost now. You can get a 60W-equivalent CFL for £1.50-2, which is ridiculously close to the cost of regular 60W lightbulbs(which cost £0.5-0.8 when bought in bulk).
- leoedin 12y ago
  It's often cheaper for manufacturers of low-cost electronics to minimally test devices before sale, with the expectation that some will die early in their life and be fixed under warranty. Burning in everything you make is expensive, especially if failure rates are fairly low anyway. Electronics tend to have a bathtub curve of failure, with high failure rates at the beginning of life. It wouldn't surprise me that older CFLs (with much higher market prices) had greater levels of testing/burn in before being shipped, leading to much lower failure rates.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

sliverstorm 12y ago

Usage patterns are important with CFL's. They are sensitive to many on/off cycles, and last longest when they burn continually. So, it might be interesting to take a moment and consider whether your usage patterns have shifted markedly.

danielweber 12y ago
Oddly, the ones I abuse the most -- leaving them outdoors in enclosures, frequent on/off -- have lastest the longest, and those I've simply put in normal sockets have failed the quickest.
- whitten 12y ago
  I seem to recall there is an issue with CFL bulbs that has to do with ambient temperature. Recessed sockets get hotter, and shorten CFL life considerably.
  - virtue3 12y ago
    The circuitry of CFLs (like the circuitry on LEDs) is where the heat is generated (basically the base of the bulb) and can _really_ kill the lifetime of the bulb if they're up in recessed indoor lighting environments.
derekp7 12y ago
Also, CFL's installed in ceiling fixtures have two problems -- the heat goes up into the circuitry (many CFL packages I've seen said not to install upside down), and anyone stomping around on the floor above will induce vibrations which shorten life.
vidarh 12y ago
Also, whatever the rated voltage for your power, don't assume it will be exact, and different voltage can be very noticeable on bulb lifetime. If bulbs keep popping it may be worth checking the voltage of your electricity supply. Ours is nearly 10% higher than it should be...

dpeck 12y ago

I noticed this as well, especially with CFLs from Phillips.

Osmium 12y ago

I believe it's typically the heat sinks/packaging etc. that go with the LED bulbs, long before the crystals themselves do (which are the most expensive part, though they can fail too).

philwelch 12y ago

Inkjet printers from the 90's are also much more durable and overengineered than anything you'll buy today.

cecilpl 12y ago
More like, the inkjet printers from the 90's that aren't in landfills yet are very durable. There were lots of 90s era printers that were just as trashy as the ones made today.
- UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
  Ah yea, good old Survivorship bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
- Roboprog 12y ago
  My early 90s HP InkJet was a workhorse, as was the NEC laser printer I had (though it had driver issues). My computers stopped coming with a parallel port.
- Decade 12y ago
  My early 90's Canon eventually leaked all over. It was a big mess. My Epsons clogged and prompted me to do futile head cleaning routines that wasted a lot of paper. My HP was sort of okay, but it turns out that I don't print enough. Any inkjet would clog under my normal use.
Istof 12y ago
I would say that over-engineered goods are the ones that last just long enough (and not any more) so that most customers don't feel like they were ripped off when they need to replace the product. The products that you are refering to were under-engineered (they were engineered on the safe side).
- thrownaway2424 12y ago
  Yep. As my college professors used to repeat, anyone can build a building that stands up, but only an engineer can build a building that barely stands up.

justin66 12y ago

I lost an expensive (and weak) GE LED lamp I bought a few years ago. In fairness, they weren't rated for a super long lifetime - or at least they didn't have a very long warranty.

ekianjo 12y ago

> 'There are already reports of CFLs and LED lamps burning out long before their rated lifetimes were reached.' What's more worrying is that Governments have outlawed traditional light bulbs in favor of LED or CFL ones. If that's not some powerful lobby, I don't know what it is.

warbastard 12y ago
In the EU, incandescent bulbs were banned as part of a directive [1] to reduce energy use, as only 10% of the energy put in was converted to light. That sounds like a sensible move to me rather than lobbying. In the UK, CFL bulbs were also subsidised and/or given out free to households by the energy companies before incandescent bulbs were banned. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/aug/31/lightbulbs-incandescent-europe http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/aug/31/lightbulb...
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > In the EU, incandescent bulbs were banned as part of a directive [1] to reduce energy use, as only 10% of the energy put in was converted to light. That sounds like a sensible move to me rather than lobbying. If it makes economical sense, let consumers judge for themselves. The cost at purchase of LEDs / CFLs is way higher than traditional light bulbs. Everyone should be able to have access to cheap lights.
  - Tomte 12y ago
    As long as we haven't figured out and implemented a way to align economical and ecological sense, your suggestion is a non-starter.
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      Haha. We are not going to consume LESS energy in the future, unless you want to live in poor conditions. The working assumption is how do we create more, cheaper and in a cleaner way. There's a bunch of papers out there on how energy consumption and level of life are closely related.

crististm 12y ago

In my building, administration changed last year all the floor lamps with CFL. From a total of 19 bulbs, 2 burned out. They stay on all day long. That means 10% of the bulbs burned before reaching 9000 hours. The rest seems to be unaffected. However, _older_ lamps (made > 15, 20 years ago) used to last much longer than two or three years on all the time. I know this because I took notice of this at the moment. I have incandescent bulbs that are more than 10 years old, that burn 2-3 hours a day today. Incandescent bulbs I bought in the last years typically lasted less than 1-2 years at a similar burning rate. I saw a change in bulb quality when the local industry died (east Europe) and all you could get were Osram from Poland or Phillips. In my opinion, the reaches of the cartel are still strong.

gambiting 12y ago
In my opinion, people want to pay less and less each year, which leads to using cheaper materials. 15 years ago a CFL cost a very decent amount of money, I am sure that if you adjusted the price for inflation it would cost at least 4x of what they cost now. You can get a 60W-equivalent CFL for £1.50-2, which is ridiculously close to the cost of regular 60W lightbulbs(which cost £0.5-0.8 when bought in bulk).
leoedin 12y ago
It's often cheaper for manufacturers of low-cost electronics to minimally test devices before sale, with the expectation that some will die early in their life and be fixed under warranty. Burning in everything you make is expensive, especially if failure rates are fairly low anyway. Electronics tend to have a bathtub curve of failure, with high failure rates at the beginning of life. It wouldn't surprise me that older CFLs (with much higher market prices) had greater levels of testing/burn in before being shipped, leading to much lower failure rates.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]