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Disclosure: I am a United States citizen (by facts of birth) and my wife is a United States citizen (by naturalization). Both of us have lived and worked both i

Disclosure: I am a United States citizen (by facts of birth) and my wife is a United States citizen (by naturalization). Both of us have lived and worked both in the United States and as long-term expatriates in another country (Taiwan, where my wife is from). During both of my stays in Taiwan, I went through the trouble of filling out United States tax forms each year related to income that was wholly derived from my employment in Taiwan. I'm a dot-the'i's and cross-the-'t's kind of guy that way. I make sure to follow the laws I know about, the better to protest against laws that really upset me. The saying in the newspaper business is that "'Dog Bites Man' is not news, but 'Man Bites Dog' is news." So we see news stories from time to time with the surprising story hook that some people with United States citizenship give up their citizenship, usually for tax reasons. But this is news precisely because it is very unusual. This influences the decision-making about citizenship of only tiny numbers of Americans. Most United States citizens are happy to have their citizenship, even if they live overseas for years at a time, as some of my friends and several participants on Hacker News do. There are still probably 100 million or more people around the world who be glad to immigrate to the United States.[1] On the basis of net immigration among all countries in the world, the United States is still by far the winner in gaining capable people from other countries on a net basis.[2] The exceptional cases of persons with high earned income overseas who come out ahead economically and dipomatically by renouncing United States citizenship are still exceptional cases. Most United States citizens abroad are quite happy to have the passports and the consular representation they have as United States expatriates, as contrasted with being citizens of the country they work in or expatriates with some other citizenship. [1] http://www.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-dream-life.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-drea... [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/232-million-people-left-their-countries-for-new-ones-where-did-they-go/279741/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/232...

btown 12y ago
Nobody is saying or implying that American expatriates are, as a general rule, renouncing their citizenship. The issue is that a nontrivial number of American expatriates are being incentivized to renounce their citizenship, to the point where some of those feel they have no choice but to renounce. It's an unintended consequence of a law that affects a minority, and this is precisely what news media should be covering. To dismiss the article because "most citizens are happy," and to set up a straw man argument about immigration into the United States (a phenomenon completely unrelated to the reaction of non-US banks to US policy), would likely be seen as offensive to that minority which was forced to renounce citizenship.
- tokenadult 12y ago
  Nobody is saying or implying that American expatriates are, as a general rule, renouncing their citizenship. The issue is that a nontrivial number of American expatriates are being incentivized to renounce their citizenship, to the point where some of those feel they have no choice but to renounce. Numbers matter in public policy discussions. I understand your opinion that the numbers of Americans who have renounced citizenship for tax reasons is "nontrivial," but I hope I make clear, as an American who has lived overseas among many other expatriate Americans, and who still keeps up regular contact with many expatriate Americans who derive all their income from overseas work, that I think the reported numbers are indeed trivial. As an American voter and taxpayer who cares deeply about the future of the United States and who knows first-hand about the trade-offs involved in living and working overseas, I'm not seeing a crisis here. I'm not seeing the numbers here I would need to see to advocate a change in current policy, even if other people kvetch about the current policy.

btown 12y ago

Nobody is saying or implying that American expatriates are, as a general rule, renouncing their citizenship. The issue is that a nontrivial number of American expatriates are being incentivized to renounce their citizenship, to the point where some of those feel they have no choice but to renounce. It's an unintended consequence of a law that affects a minority, and this is precisely what news media should be covering. To dismiss the article because "most citizens are happy," and to set up a straw man argument about immigration into the United States (a phenomenon completely unrelated to the reaction of non-US banks to US policy), would likely be seen as offensive to that minority which was forced to renounce citizenship.

tokenadult 12y ago
Nobody is saying or implying that American expatriates are, as a general rule, renouncing their citizenship. The issue is that a nontrivial number of American expatriates are being incentivized to renounce their citizenship, to the point where some of those feel they have no choice but to renounce. Numbers matter in public policy discussions. I understand your opinion that the numbers of Americans who have renounced citizenship for tax reasons is "nontrivial," but I hope I make clear, as an American who has lived overseas among many other expatriate Americans, and who still keeps up regular contact with many expatriate Americans who derive all their income from overseas work, that I think the reported numbers are indeed trivial. As an American voter and taxpayer who cares deeply about the future of the United States and who knows first-hand about the trade-offs involved in living and working overseas, I'm not seeing a crisis here. I'm not seeing the numbers here I would need to see to advocate a change in current policy, even if other people kvetch about the current policy.