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In anticipation of the comments we've gotten in the past: * We hold everyone to the same admissions standard, regardless of race or gender. The grants are our

In anticipation of the comments we've gotten in the past: * We hold everyone to the same admissions standard, regardless of race or gender. The grants are our way to create a more diverse applicant pool. * Hacker School is free for everyone * We admit everyone who applies who we think is a good fit. No man has ever been rejected because a woman was accepted, so there's no way in which this harms men. * We auto-generate pseudonyms for applicants, so our initial application review focuses on people's code and what they write, not their race or gender (I'm one of the founders, and I'm happy to answer any questions folks have about Hacker School.)

dwild 12y ago
Yeah maybe you hold everyone at the same admissions standard but it's not true for accessibility to the grants. Will we reach a society where we hope to be born from a more "diverse" race? That's racism... it's sad that you use racism while believing that you are solving it. Please don't help based on the race, help based on the needs. Edit: Can anyone debate instead of downvote? That's doesn't seems like an healthy way to change opinions...
- dethstar 12y ago
  Okay so, not so long ago they were only providing grants to women. Did I think to myself oh that's sexist? No, you know why? Because I'm pretty sure they provide the grants to people with needs (at the end of the applying form you check a box that says you'd need financial aid). Yes, they're using filters like gender and race first. But if you were a white male, you live in a society where you could probably approach any hacker space or anything else without feeling weird about it, unlike many trans*, queer or black/latin@ people. That's the way they're promoting diversity, by creating spaces where people can feel more welcome/safe, they're in no way denying white people or males.
  - dwild 12y ago
    I did find that sexist, maybe you weren't but I was. I was afraid to talk though... this is the sad part I guess. > you live in a society where you could probably approach any hacker space or anything else without feeling weird about it, unlike many trans*, queer or black/latin@ people. That's what need to be fixed. You don't solve that by giving them money. You solve that by showing we accept them, by stopping people from making them feel weird. A strict policy against racism is what's needed and being vocal about it. > they're in no way denying white people or males. That's making the issue here way more complicated to talk about for no reason. You need to draw a line between the school and the grant. I'm not saying they are racist for the school admission, I'm saying they are racist for their school grant. They are denying white people that school grant.
    - dethstar 12y ago
      >I was afraid to talk though Yeah, don't worry. While I may not agree with you on this issue I'm all for your right to express your opinion. However you may have to accept the fact that your opinion may give you a negative backlash, that happens to everyone, how ever it will only give you negative internet points (at least on hn). >A strict policy against racism is what's needed and being vocal about it. While I agree, how do you enforce that? How do you make sure that actually happens? How do you protect the groups which we agree have certain degree of disadvantage most of the time from the outside? And even with that enforced, being in an environment where most of the people might hate you based on your gender/sex/skin color won't change your experience based on a paper/set of rules. >They are denying white people that school grant. They're denying a group the grant. A group that as we have discussed and you seem to agree with me have more advantages, and even if they couldn't afford to go to hackerschool, could go to any other similar space near them. Because again they don't have to fear racism or sexism that can not be controlled. edit: fixd typo, more space for read-ability.
      - dwild 12y ago
        > While I agree, how do you enforce that? How do you make sure that actually happens? How do you protect the groups which we agree have certain degree of disadvantage most of the time from the outside? And even with that enforced, being in an environment where most of the people might hate you based on your gender/sex/skin color won't change your experience based on a paper/set of rules. Giving them money might fix that? What you do however is punish any racist action that happens. You kick people out of the school when it happens, no second chance. You give people opportunity to talk about it, you talk about it with people. What about a class that everyone need to do which talk about racism. Now they are saying that it's okay to care about your gender and race, you will get monetary support if there's a possibility of racism... if you are not white... >A group that as we have discussed and you seem to agree with me have more advantages No I disagree on that part. I know multiple people that are white that have trouble with money and I know plenty of people from other gender/race that doesn't. Generalization is wrong. There's plenty of white people that couldn't afford to go and there's plenty of non-white people that could afford to go. > could go to any other similar space near them You make me think about it. A good way to use that money would be to help hacker school to stop racism. A safe network of hacker school that fight against racism. > Because again they don't have to fear racism or sexism that can not be controlled. I still doesn't see how giving them money fix that. I completely agree that's the issue that need to be solved.
- pyrocat 12y ago
  Here's the definition of racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. How exactly does that apply to a program that's created to help groups that have a systemic disadvantage in this country?
  - dwild 12y ago
    Can you describe which systemic disadvantage they have? Does giving them money will solve theses systemic disadvantages?
    - pyrocat 12y ago
      You're asking for examples of systemic racism and sexism in America? Really?
      - dwild 12y ago
        That affect their ability to go to that school, yeah.
        achompas 12y ago
        There isn't a Terrible Racism Bandit that has stolen money from minorities, preventing them from attending Hacker School. It's the specter of racism. The fear that, say, as a Cuban-American, your boss -- the person responsible for your professional development -- might make a whitewater rafting joke at your expense. You know this type of shit is commonplace in tech, and thus you think twice about furthering your career as an engineer by attending Hacker School. This might seem trivial to straight white guys. This is because they have not experienced first-hand what it means to advance in a socioeconomic system that was built on centuries of slavery and over 140 years of disenfranchisement because they have never been part of that group.
        dwild 12y ago
        I doesn't find it trivial at all, I simply fail to see how giving them money to help them attend hacker school will stop that boss from doing that joke...
- techpeace 12y ago
  I'd be happy to! The original post says nothing about Hacker School's desire to "solve racism." Their goal is to increase the diversity of their applicant pool. Having previously instructed at a coding school which had a similar policy, I've fielded similar criticisms. In our case, we offered a 25% (if memory serves me) discount to female applicants. The goal was to spur more gender diversity in our applicant pool, and it worked swimmingly - our first class was a 50/50 gender split. Despite our own perception of the success of the policy, we received plenty of complaints from both men and women. Ashe Dryden helpfully pointed out to me, when I had the opportunity to ask her opinion, that women on average earn 25% less than men, so really we had just made the program cost the same for women as it did for men. If women or minorities are discouraged from applying to Hacker School because they would have a hard time paying their living expenses, these grants will help to eliminate that hurdle, thus achieving the goal of more applicant diversity. Needs-based grants wouldn't necessarily achieve that goal. Needs-based grants would also be more difficult from an administrative standpoint as applicants would have to prove their income, which would also invite a regulatory burden.
jdp23 12y ago
Just wanted to say that I continue to be impressed by how seriously Hacker School is approaching diversity. Hopefully other organizations who want to diversify their communities are taking notes!
- nicholasjbs 12y ago
  Thank you!
jeremyt 12y ago
Here's my question: Do you honestly believe that a poor white person from Appalachia, who has received very few advantages in life, deserves to lose out on this opportunity because his skin happens to be the wrong color? Does he get fewer diversity points, even though his life experiences are so far removed from that of the white person growing up in, say, southern California, that they might as well have grown up in different countries?
- pyrocat 12y ago
  Try being a poor black person from Appalachia, who has received even less advantages in life (and in fact, many disadvantages). The rub is that on average, people who aren't white have a way harder time in America, hence the need for these types of opportunities. It doesn't matter that one white person may have had a hard life, it matters that systemically, non-white people have many disadvantages that white people don't have.
  - jeremyt 12y ago
    Well, that's fine, but do you also want to argue that women and pacific islanders, on average, have received fewer advantages than poor white people from Appalachia?
    - pyrocat 12y ago
      I'd argue that women, on average, have received less advantages than men. And pacific islanders, on average, have received less advantages than white people. You're getting caught up in a taking a very specific sample and comparing it to a general population.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    The core question which you keep ducking is, "why do you insist on grouping by race/gender?" I.e., why don't you group humans into "suffered lots of disadvantage", "suffered a medium amount", "suffered none"? Among other things, the category "people who suffered lots of disadvantage" is more disadvantaged than either women or any racial group. Why do you explicitly exclude this subgroup of humans from consideration? Downmodding, BTW, still counts as ducking the question. Good to know that it's a difficult one.
techpeace 12y ago
Really happy to see y'all doing this! Great work. To my fellow straight, white males who have rushed here to complain, I find the following particularly relevant: "I think it’s delightful that these straight white males are now engaged on issues of racism and sexism. It would be additionally delightful if they were engaged on issues of racism and sexism even when they did not feel it was being applied to them — say, for example,when it’s regarding people who historically have most often had to deal with racism and sexism (i.e., not white males). Keep at it, straight white males! You’re on the path now!" from http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/17/lowest-difficulty-setting-follow-up/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/17/lowest-difficulty-sett...

dwild 12y ago

Yeah maybe you hold everyone at the same admissions standard but it's not true for accessibility to the grants. Will we reach a society where we hope to be born from a more "diverse" race? That's racism... it's sad that you use racism while believing that you are solving it. Please don't help based on the race, help based on the needs. Edit: Can anyone debate instead of downvote? That's doesn't seems like an healthy way to change opinions...

dethstar 12y ago
Okay so, not so long ago they were only providing grants to women. Did I think to myself oh that's sexist? No, you know why? Because I'm pretty sure they provide the grants to people with needs (at the end of the applying form you check a box that says you'd need financial aid). Yes, they're using filters like gender and race first. But if you were a white male, you live in a society where you could probably approach any hacker space or anything else without feeling weird about it, unlike many trans*, queer or black/latin@ people. That's the way they're promoting diversity, by creating spaces where people can feel more welcome/safe, they're in no way denying white people or males.
- dwild 12y ago
  I did find that sexist, maybe you weren't but I was. I was afraid to talk though... this is the sad part I guess. > you live in a society where you could probably approach any hacker space or anything else without feeling weird about it, unlike many trans*, queer or black/latin@ people. That's what need to be fixed. You don't solve that by giving them money. You solve that by showing we accept them, by stopping people from making them feel weird. A strict policy against racism is what's needed and being vocal about it. > they're in no way denying white people or males. That's making the issue here way more complicated to talk about for no reason. You need to draw a line between the school and the grant. I'm not saying they are racist for the school admission, I'm saying they are racist for their school grant. They are denying white people that school grant.
  - dethstar 12y ago
    >I was afraid to talk though Yeah, don't worry. While I may not agree with you on this issue I'm all for your right to express your opinion. However you may have to accept the fact that your opinion may give you a negative backlash, that happens to everyone, how ever it will only give you negative internet points (at least on hn). >A strict policy against racism is what's needed and being vocal about it. While I agree, how do you enforce that? How do you make sure that actually happens? How do you protect the groups which we agree have certain degree of disadvantage most of the time from the outside? And even with that enforced, being in an environment where most of the people might hate you based on your gender/sex/skin color won't change your experience based on a paper/set of rules. >They are denying white people that school grant. They're denying a group the grant. A group that as we have discussed and you seem to agree with me have more advantages, and even if they couldn't afford to go to hackerschool, could go to any other similar space near them. Because again they don't have to fear racism or sexism that can not be controlled. edit: fixd typo, more space for read-ability.
    - dwild 12y ago
      > While I agree, how do you enforce that? How do you make sure that actually happens? How do you protect the groups which we agree have certain degree of disadvantage most of the time from the outside? And even with that enforced, being in an environment where most of the people might hate you based on your gender/sex/skin color won't change your experience based on a paper/set of rules. Giving them money might fix that? What you do however is punish any racist action that happens. You kick people out of the school when it happens, no second chance. You give people opportunity to talk about it, you talk about it with people. What about a class that everyone need to do which talk about racism. Now they are saying that it's okay to care about your gender and race, you will get monetary support if there's a possibility of racism... if you are not white... >A group that as we have discussed and you seem to agree with me have more advantages No I disagree on that part. I know multiple people that are white that have trouble with money and I know plenty of people from other gender/race that doesn't. Generalization is wrong. There's plenty of white people that couldn't afford to go and there's plenty of non-white people that could afford to go. > could go to any other similar space near them You make me think about it. A good way to use that money would be to help hacker school to stop racism. A safe network of hacker school that fight against racism. > Because again they don't have to fear racism or sexism that can not be controlled. I still doesn't see how giving them money fix that. I completely agree that's the issue that need to be solved.
pyrocat 12y ago
Here's the definition of racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. How exactly does that apply to a program that's created to help groups that have a systemic disadvantage in this country?
- dwild 12y ago
  Can you describe which systemic disadvantage they have? Does giving them money will solve theses systemic disadvantages?
  - pyrocat 12y ago
    You're asking for examples of systemic racism and sexism in America? Really?
    - dwild 12y ago
      That affect their ability to go to that school, yeah.
      - achompas 12y ago
        There isn't a Terrible Racism Bandit that has stolen money from minorities, preventing them from attending Hacker School. It's the specter of racism. The fear that, say, as a Cuban-American, your boss -- the person responsible for your professional development -- might make a whitewater rafting joke at your expense. You know this type of shit is commonplace in tech, and thus you think twice about furthering your career as an engineer by attending Hacker School. This might seem trivial to straight white guys. This is because they have not experienced first-hand what it means to advance in a socioeconomic system that was built on centuries of slavery and over 140 years of disenfranchisement because they have never been part of that group.
        dwild 12y ago
        I doesn't find it trivial at all, I simply fail to see how giving them money to help them attend hacker school will stop that boss from doing that joke...
techpeace 12y ago
I'd be happy to! The original post says nothing about Hacker School's desire to "solve racism." Their goal is to increase the diversity of their applicant pool. Having previously instructed at a coding school which had a similar policy, I've fielded similar criticisms. In our case, we offered a 25% (if memory serves me) discount to female applicants. The goal was to spur more gender diversity in our applicant pool, and it worked swimmingly - our first class was a 50/50 gender split. Despite our own perception of the success of the policy, we received plenty of complaints from both men and women. Ashe Dryden helpfully pointed out to me, when I had the opportunity to ask her opinion, that women on average earn 25% less than men, so really we had just made the program cost the same for women as it did for men. If women or minorities are discouraged from applying to Hacker School because they would have a hard time paying their living expenses, these grants will help to eliminate that hurdle, thus achieving the goal of more applicant diversity. Needs-based grants wouldn't necessarily achieve that goal. Needs-based grants would also be more difficult from an administrative standpoint as applicants would have to prove their income, which would also invite a regulatory burden.

jdp23 12y ago

Just wanted to say that I continue to be impressed by how seriously Hacker School is approaching diversity. Hopefully other organizations who want to diversify their communities are taking notes!

nicholasjbs 12y ago
Thank you!

jeremyt 12y ago

Here's my question: Do you honestly believe that a poor white person from Appalachia, who has received very few advantages in life, deserves to lose out on this opportunity because his skin happens to be the wrong color? Does he get fewer diversity points, even though his life experiences are so far removed from that of the white person growing up in, say, southern California, that they might as well have grown up in different countries?

pyrocat 12y ago
Try being a poor black person from Appalachia, who has received even less advantages in life (and in fact, many disadvantages). The rub is that on average, people who aren't white have a way harder time in America, hence the need for these types of opportunities. It doesn't matter that one white person may have had a hard life, it matters that systemically, non-white people have many disadvantages that white people don't have.
- jeremyt 12y ago
  Well, that's fine, but do you also want to argue that women and pacific islanders, on average, have received fewer advantages than poor white people from Appalachia?
  - pyrocat 12y ago
    I'd argue that women, on average, have received less advantages than men. And pacific islanders, on average, have received less advantages than white people. You're getting caught up in a taking a very specific sample and comparing it to a general population.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  The core question which you keep ducking is, "why do you insist on grouping by race/gender?" I.e., why don't you group humans into "suffered lots of disadvantage", "suffered a medium amount", "suffered none"? Among other things, the category "people who suffered lots of disadvantage" is more disadvantaged than either women or any racial group. Why do you explicitly exclude this subgroup of humans from consideration? Downmodding, BTW, still counts as ducking the question. Good to know that it's a difficult one.

techpeace 12y ago

Really happy to see y'all doing this! Great work. To my fellow straight, white males who have rushed here to complain, I find the following particularly relevant: "I think it’s delightful that these straight white males are now engaged on issues of racism and sexism. It would be additionally delightful if they were engaged on issues of racism and sexism even when they did not feel it was being applied to them — say, for example,when it’s regarding people who historically have most often had to deal with racism and sexism (i.e., not white males). Keep at it, straight white males! You’re on the path now!" from http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/17/lowest-difficulty-setting-follow-up/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/17/lowest-difficulty-sett...