7 ms·

Anti-discrimination laws do not solve any problems, they make them worse. If someone is not willing to hire a person because of their ethnicity/color/sex/age/wh

by sauere 12y ago

Anti-discrimination laws do not solve any problems, they make them worse. If someone is not willing to hire a person because of their ethnicity/color/sex/age/whatever, a law will not make him do it. Finding an excuse is too easy and it is basically impossible to prove such things in court. I recommend watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzXXvUjg8Fo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzXXvUjg8Fo

gabzuka 12y ago
I'm getting a "video does not exist" on that link.
- sauere 12y ago
  fixed
Folcon 12y ago
Your video isn't viewable.
netcan 12y ago
I really dislike this mentality. I think it's counterproductive, and I hope you change your mind. Laws play their role. Sometimes they walk fine lines between usefulness, uselessness and harmfulness, but they are not unequivocally useless in all such cases. Consider the gay awakening. When I was in high school the world was a qualitatively different place for homosexuals. A worse place. The axis around which culture has pivoted on this and other issues, is difficult to name. But, an important part of it is just defining, explaining, defending (and sometimes even legislating) what is by our standards an asshole position. If you are so hung up on the idea that men are shagging each other in this world that it affects how you interact with people, you are an asshole. Society says so. To this day, many non assholes are uncomfortable with gays. Maybe it's conservatism, cultural habit, latent homosexuality, whatever. But, if you're talking to an intelligent young person chances are they'll think of you as a crazy asshole if you start making fidgety mean statements about gays. That's the cultural change and it's a powerful force. Legislation is a part of that. Perfectly enforceable or not, it allows an avenue for enforcement of blatant cases and formalizes the moral position of our time. Thou shall not be a crazy asshole that gets bent out of shape around the idea of a gay neighbor. Legislation's role in this is sometime minor, sometimes major and sometimes ineffective. I have no illusions about what legislation can achieve without the winds of change at its back. But, there is such a thing as our society.
- yock 12y ago
  This feels like pie-in-the-sky sort of thinking. Sure, you can make certain kinds of decision making processes illegal, but it doesn't change the hearts and minds of the people making those decisions. As has been said here already, this only pushes those processes out of the public eye and into the private space. Those who would discriminate on illegal grounds will always be able to manufacture plausible deniability, which the posted article clearly demonstrates. We'd all like to think we're better. That's what leads us down the path of legislating out way out of prejudice. It's not a solution. To me, the article suggests an alternative way to fight it: information. Forget equal opportunity, affirmative action, whatever label you want to put on it. Publishing the data, putting a name with the prejudice on display for everyone to see, is the proper fight. Then the people who profit from the prejudice, and those who participate in the system, can be pressured to change. Failing that, society can marginalize them.
  - DigitalJack 12y ago
    I agree with a lot of what you say, but in reality you actually can legislate morality and change hearts and minds. It doesn't happen as fast as creating the legislation, but over time, hearing a message over and over, it becomes embedded and believed. So while you may not change a particular person's mind, you stand a chance of changing their kid's mind. There was a time, not that long ago, in America where if you were Black and drank from the wrong water fountain our sat at the wrong spot in a restaurant, you would be killed by a mob. Legislation about segregation changed that for the better. Probably not in those living in the day, but their kids and kid's kids.
    - yock 12y ago
      Don't you think the act of creating the legislation is itself part of the peoples' changing hearts and minds? To me it seems like you have the cause and effect reversed.
      - rmc 12y ago
        In order to get the legislation passed you need to convert some hearts and minds. The existance of the legislation converts some more.
lafar6502 12y ago
Isn't it a basic right of an owner to rent his property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (even if the decision is based on racial prejudice)?
- tzmudzin 12y ago
  Not quite, as long as we as a society want to protect the minorities. Either you force equal treatment, or things can escalate quite quickly: - basic right of owner to rent property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (and not to rent to anyone else...) - basic right of hotel owner to accept anyone he choses (and deny access to anyone else) - basic right of restarant manager to accept anyone he chooses (and deny service to anyone else) - basic right of transportation owner to accept anyone he chooses (and deny service to anyone else) - basic right of hospital operator to accept anyone he chooses (and deny service to anyone else) Now pick your minority: it might have been Jews or the Slavic for the Nazis, it might have been the blacks in South Africa -- or the US, or homosexuals in Russia. Or the red-headed, the fat, the old, ... Once you step onto this path, it's hard to put hard stop someplace
  - lafar6502 12y ago
    Somehow I expected first response to mention Nazis... Anyway, renting a flat is just a contract between two people, not a public service. You need to trust the other person and feel comfortable with giving them access to your property. I dont care about minorities or majorities - its my property and I'm the one who's entitled to do anything with it. Laws won't make me accept _any_ offer if I can choose the best one from a large pool. Just introduce some stupid regulations and I bet you won't find any appartment because nobody will be renting.
    - goodJobWalrus 12y ago
      Sure, but if you base your comfortableness with giving the access to your property to someone, not on their rental history, or credit info or interview, but on the fact that they are say, black, you are discriminating, and you are probably a racist.
JabavuAdams 12y ago
I don't speed when I think there's a police speed-trap on a given road. I don't tell lewd jokes in front of strangers. People modify their behaviour to avoid negative consequences. You don't need to change their deep thinking, necessarily. Just their behaviour. That starts the social change.
rmc 12y ago
Racism is not binary. There are spectrums. People who are a little bit racist will be scared off by the law and hire the person so as not to be sued/convicted. Congratulations! anti-discrimination laws have solved a problem! Within an organisation with one/some very racist people, the threat of "that's illegal" can keep them in line and prevent them doing racist things. Anti-discrimination laws succeed again! Laws against (say) homosexual sex, or norms/laws/rules mentioning homosexuality in schools/TV kept many homosexuals in the closet, hidden and powerless. I hope we can do the same for racism.

by sauere 12y ago

gabzuka 12y ago

I'm getting a "video does not exist" on that link.

sauere 12y ago
fixed

Folcon 12y ago

Your video isn't viewable.

netcan 12y ago

I really dislike this mentality. I think it's counterproductive, and I hope you change your mind. Laws play their role. Sometimes they walk fine lines between usefulness, uselessness and harmfulness, but they are not unequivocally useless in all such cases. Consider the gay awakening. When I was in high school the world was a qualitatively different place for homosexuals. A worse place. The axis around which culture has pivoted on this and other issues, is difficult to name. But, an important part of it is just defining, explaining, defending (and sometimes even legislating) what is by our standards an asshole position. If you are so hung up on the idea that men are shagging each other in this world that it affects how you interact with people, you are an asshole. Society says so. To this day, many non assholes are uncomfortable with gays. Maybe it's conservatism, cultural habit, latent homosexuality, whatever. But, if you're talking to an intelligent young person chances are they'll think of you as a crazy asshole if you start making fidgety mean statements about gays. That's the cultural change and it's a powerful force. Legislation is a part of that. Perfectly enforceable or not, it allows an avenue for enforcement of blatant cases and formalizes the moral position of our time. Thou shall not be a crazy asshole that gets bent out of shape around the idea of a gay neighbor. Legislation's role in this is sometime minor, sometimes major and sometimes ineffective. I have no illusions about what legislation can achieve without the winds of change at its back. But, there is such a thing as our society.

yock 12y ago
This feels like pie-in-the-sky sort of thinking. Sure, you can make certain kinds of decision making processes illegal, but it doesn't change the hearts and minds of the people making those decisions. As has been said here already, this only pushes those processes out of the public eye and into the private space. Those who would discriminate on illegal grounds will always be able to manufacture plausible deniability, which the posted article clearly demonstrates. We'd all like to think we're better. That's what leads us down the path of legislating out way out of prejudice. It's not a solution. To me, the article suggests an alternative way to fight it: information. Forget equal opportunity, affirmative action, whatever label you want to put on it. Publishing the data, putting a name with the prejudice on display for everyone to see, is the proper fight. Then the people who profit from the prejudice, and those who participate in the system, can be pressured to change. Failing that, society can marginalize them.
- DigitalJack 12y ago
  I agree with a lot of what you say, but in reality you actually can legislate morality and change hearts and minds. It doesn't happen as fast as creating the legislation, but over time, hearing a message over and over, it becomes embedded and believed. So while you may not change a particular person's mind, you stand a chance of changing their kid's mind. There was a time, not that long ago, in America where if you were Black and drank from the wrong water fountain our sat at the wrong spot in a restaurant, you would be killed by a mob. Legislation about segregation changed that for the better. Probably not in those living in the day, but their kids and kid's kids.
  - yock 12y ago
    Don't you think the act of creating the legislation is itself part of the peoples' changing hearts and minds? To me it seems like you have the cause and effect reversed.
    - rmc 12y ago
      In order to get the legislation passed you need to convert some hearts and minds. The existance of the legislation converts some more.

lafar6502 12y ago

Isn't it a basic right of an owner to rent his property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (even if the decision is based on racial prejudice)?

tzmudzin 12y ago
Not quite, as long as we as a society want to protect the minorities. Either you force equal treatment, or things can escalate quite quickly: - basic right of owner to rent property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (and not to rent to anyone else...) - basic right of hotel owner to accept anyone he choses (and deny access to anyone else) - basic right of restarant manager to accept anyone he chooses (and deny service to anyone else) - basic right of transportation owner to accept anyone he chooses (and deny service to anyone else) - basic right of hospital operator to accept anyone he chooses (and deny service to anyone else) Now pick your minority: it might have been Jews or the Slavic for the Nazis, it might have been the blacks in South Africa -- or the US, or homosexuals in Russia. Or the red-headed, the fat, the old, ... Once you step onto this path, it's hard to put hard stop someplace
- lafar6502 12y ago
  Somehow I expected first response to mention Nazis... Anyway, renting a flat is just a contract between two people, not a public service. You need to trust the other person and feel comfortable with giving them access to your property. I dont care about minorities or majorities - its my property and I'm the one who's entitled to do anything with it. Laws won't make me accept _any_ offer if I can choose the best one from a large pool. Just introduce some stupid regulations and I bet you won't find any appartment because nobody will be renting.
  - goodJobWalrus 12y ago
    Sure, but if you base your comfortableness with giving the access to your property to someone, not on their rental history, or credit info or interview, but on the fact that they are say, black, you are discriminating, and you are probably a racist.

JabavuAdams 12y ago

I don't speed when I think there's a police speed-trap on a given road. I don't tell lewd jokes in front of strangers. People modify their behaviour to avoid negative consequences. You don't need to change their deep thinking, necessarily. Just their behaviour. That starts the social change.

rmc 12y ago

Racism is not binary. There are spectrums. People who are a little bit racist will be scared off by the law and hire the person so as not to be sued/convicted. Congratulations! anti-discrimination laws have solved a problem! Within an organisation with one/some very racist people, the threat of "that's illegal" can keep them in line and prevent them doing racist things. Anti-discrimination laws succeed again! Laws against (say) homosexual sex, or norms/laws/rules mentioning homosexuality in schools/TV kept many homosexuals in the closet, hidden and powerless. I hope we can do the same for racism.