5 ms·

I really don't understand how any serious developer can use Gnome 3. I have tried for the past couple of months to use the out-of-the-box Gnome setup under Fedo

I really don't understand how any serious developer can use Gnome 3. I have tried for the past couple of months to use the out-of-the-box Gnome setup under Fedora (with the Adwaita theme) and the whole experience was maddening. I've finally switched back to KDE (which I haven't used for almost 5 years) and if this doesn't work out I'll go back to XFCE (which is what I used in-between). Some problems include: * Focused and unfocused windows look almost identical * Expected features like tray icons, virtual desktops, alt+drag to move/resize windows, even alt+tab don't work out-of-the-box * Window focus seems completely broken * Eclipse looks terrible (and I spend much of my time there) - I'm told "no, that's an SWT issue", but it looks great under KDE * IntelliJ's menus don't track the moue properly - again, probably a Java issue, but still works great under KDE * Having to "drag" the screensaver thing away is annoying * gkrellm seems to make all of my window focus issues even worse I know most of the issues can be blamed on application/third-party framework bugs, but the fact is that I just want to get my work done and KDE/XFCE both work great. Go look at some of the Gnome source code comments and Bugzillas and you will see the very opinionated "do it my way" thinking that the Gnome developers have. In some cases, it's almost hostile. If I wanted a desktop that valued form over function, I'd use a Mac.

ayrx 12y ago
I consider myself a serious developer and I'm perfectly happy with Gnome 3. It's clean, simple and allows me to focus on what's really important -- my editor and terminal. Having your own opinions is fine but please do not generalize.
- adambatkin 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, what theme do you use? I really wanted to be happy with Gnome 3, but the focus issues (strange stacking order issues, sometimes closing dialogs would leave no window with focus, launching certain apps with global hotkeys wouldn't bring them to the front) made it impossible for me to keep track of what I was trying to do. I'm curious if maybe there's something about my setup that's different than everyone else (because I know there are plenty of people who are happy with it) or if maybe I'm more keyboard oriented or something.
  - ayrx 12y ago
    The default GNOME 3 that comes with Fedora 20. My needs from a DE is minimal. I spend 90% of my time alt-tabbing between my browser and editor with my terminal a F12 away (Guake is awesome). GNOME 3 simply gets out of my way and lets me focus on what is important.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
sjolsen 12y ago
A lot of this reflects something I've noticed about development in the Gnome world: they decide exactly how interfaces should be used, and lock that in. As time progresses, they drop more and more customizability out of their products, and as a result, you're increasingly left with a choice between doing things their way, or mucking around in their re-envisioning of the Windows Registry or even program source code. A big one for me is keyboard input: at one point, I could use the Super key for whatever I liked, and I could easily set the right Alt key to be a Compose key. Now, there is no reclaiming the Super key from hard-coded shortcuts (Unity is even worse about this!), and the Compose key is outright missing from the keyboard settings menu. The obvious fix is simply not to use Gnome. I'm personally partial to Openbox; it's amenable to customization in a way I don't think Gnome will ever be again. The problem is that with the flurry of new system(d?) technologies -- dbus, policykit, consolekit, who knows what the hell else -- nothing works. I can't even mount removable drives from any file manager under an Openbox session now. At the moment, Gnome is the only system sufficiently tightly coupled into this stuff to work at all, and that's frustrating.
- elehack 12y ago
  > A big one for me is keyboard input: at one point, I could use the Super key for whatever I liked, and I could easily set the right Alt key to be a Compose key. Now, there is no reclaiming the Super key from hard-coded shortcuts (Unity is even worse about this!), and the Compose key is outright missing from the keyboard settings menu. Compose key is moved. To a non-obvious spot (if you're used to its historic location). Settings → Keyboard → Shortcuts, the ‘Typing’ section. There's ‘Compose key’, which lets you set the compose key. It's also in a more traditional form in Gnome Tweak Tool.
  - sjolsen 12y ago
    > Settings → Keyboard → Shortcuts, the ‘Typing’ section Thank you! > a non-obvious spot No kidding; the Compose key being an actual key, it really belongs with the rest of the keyboard mapping settings. I guess since they removed that section altogether, they had to stick it somewhere. > It's also in a more traditional form in Gnome Tweak Tool. Not anywhere I can see, but that's not a big deal.
girvo 12y ago
I feel the same way. Gnome 3's ideas are interesting, but execution leaves a bit to be desired; When I use it, it feels like I'm fighting it to get it work nicely, and as a developer I don't want to spend my time doing that. Funnily enough, Unity and Elementary OS's DE have the same "sane defaults and 'intuitive' interface" idea, but both of them have executed it better in my opinion.
gadr90 12y ago
Interesting. I've used Ubuntu for years before Unity, switched between Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu with Unity, Linux Mint Cinnamon, Linux Mint MATE... and finally, as of last week, I've been using Ubuntu Gnome. It was, of all the above mentioned, the first to give me a fluid desktop performance with decent aesthetics and all functionality I have grown accostumed to. I'm particularly fond of: * Alt + drag work really well, specially dragging into borders with automatic resize. The lack of this feature in MATE was a daily pain for me. * Login screen actually has useful information (even HipChat notifications!) and is really accessible - it opens up whether I scroll or simply start typing my password. * The search box is, for a change (from Unity), actually smart. When I say "home", it knows precisely what I mean. * All my tools work perfectly. IntelliJ WebStorm, HipChat, Chrome, the terminal... Even Spotify Linux Preview works like a charm. I have had TWO minor hiccups: * Bluetooth needed some extra modules installed. After that, everything worked fine. * Workspaces would not behave appropriately with external monitor. One command solved that. So, for now, Ubuntu Gnome is definitely my distro of choice. [edited for formatting]
detrino 12y ago
I had a similar experience with Gnome 3, it looked nice but was always difficult to use despite trying for many months. I suggest taking a look at Mate. I moved to it after finally giving up on Gnome 3 and have been very happy. Here are some of my complaints from a previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7723073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7723073
LeoPanthera 12y ago
> If I wanted a desktop that valued form over function, I'd use a Mac. If you did use a Mac, you'd find form and function. It is possible to have both.
- sigmaml 12y ago
  You'd have to acknowledge that it is subjective, though. After using OS X for a few years, I switched back to Kubuntu. The driver was that form was eclipsing function. It was becoming increasingly difficult to make OS X function `my way'. I had to resort to third-party applications for almost everything. That reduced the value of the OS itself to near zero.
kentonv 12y ago
I use and love GNOME 3, and I think I'm a serious developer. I love the simplicity. I love that jamming the mouse into the upper-right is the way to bring up all the application launching and window management UI, and the rest of the time it's out of the way. I love that it actually feels innovative, in that the design isn't just ripped off from some other OS. I love that non-essential features are relegated to extensions, keeping the core pure. IIRC the problem with Eclipse is that it still uses gtk2, and thus gtk3 themes and config won't affect it. You have to manually edit the gtk2 settings to apply a reasonable theme. Ironically KDE can control gtk2 from its own control panel, but GNOME 3 cannot. Oh well. Personally, I don't understand how any serious developer can use Mac OSX, yet almost every developer I meet these days in fact uses it, so... perhaps we are just projecting.
- fixedd 12y ago
  Also, you can (once again) use the keyboard for almost everything. Want to open an app? Press super and start typing it's name!
  - swah 12y ago
    I also use this extensively in Windows 7 and OSX.
- emsy 12y ago
  Ever used a Mac? I've used GNOME 3 for 1.5 years and it was terrible.
  - kentonv 12y ago
    I have had some form of Mac that I used on a regular basis for at least six of the last nine years. FWIW, GNOME 3 has improved massively in the last year or two.
vacri 12y ago
I too moved to KDE recently, and couldn't be (much) happier. Guh-nome has it's "you're an idiot" philosophy, which I find really painful. XFCE still has some rough corners. KDE is a traditional heavyweight desktop that is well-supported. Heaps of old-school customisability, allowing me to tweak it to my workflow, rather than corral me into its workflow. Sad to see Debian not continuing with the shift to XFCE (I'd prefer KDE, but I think the lightweight DE is the better way to go for a 'universal' distro). Maybe with the next release? I also use gkrellm, but only for gkrellm-bfm :)
reedlaw 12y ago
I feel the same way towards Macs. Macs "just work" out of the box until you try to customize anything or install up to date dev tools. Gnome 3 works out of the box (for me at least). Plus you have source code if you need to debug or customize anything. I use Arch Linux which is not exactly easy to install. As soon as I install Gnome, however, the user experience becomes as easy as a Mac, but with a powerful Linux engine underneath. I am free to install the latest kernels and packages plus I have a desktop that a non-Linux user can use. Personally, I don't care too much about the Desktop Environment, as long as it doesn't get in my way. Gnome 3 allows me to use as much or as little as I want. I normally use command line tools, but in a pinch I can use the Display Manager or Network Manager to get set up in a different environment.
- dysfunction 12y ago
  Installing up to date dev tools is easily done on Mac with Homebrew.
WoodenChair 12y ago
Interestingly, one of the creators of Gnome switched to a Mac. http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2013/Mar-05.html http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2013/Mar-05.html
- pmahoney 12y ago
  But none of the reasons he lists have much to do with Gnome: > Machine would suspend and resume without problem, WiFi just worked, audio did not stop working, ... [no] fighting the video drivers
  - WoodenChair 12y ago
    Well it speaks to the OP's comment about Macs being "Form over Function."
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
jmhain 12y ago
I'd consider myself a serious developer and I love GNOME 3. > Focused and unfocused windows look almost identical I have never had a problem distinguishing. > Expected features like tray icons, virtual desktops, alt+drag to move/resize windows, even alt+tab don't work out-of-the-box All of the above work perfectly fine. I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. > Window focus seems completely broken You'll have to be more specific here; works fine for me. > IntelliJ's menus don't track the moue properly - again, probably a Java issue, but still works great under KDE I had issues with IntelliJ until I switched from OpenJDK to the Oracle JDK. Now it works fine (though a bit ugly). > Having to "drag" the screensaver thing away is annoying You're doing it wrong. Just start typing your password and it goes away. Some of the developers definitely do have a bad attitude, but many are actually quite awesome. Besides, more often than not, their way has turned out pretty good.
- fixedd 12y ago
  I'm 100% in agreement with you here. Gnome 3 was/is, to me, the only desktop I can stand to use anymore. I will agree with OP's complaint about alt-tab though... I had to install [Coverflow Alt-Tab|https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/97/coverflow-alt-tab/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/97/coverflow-alt-tab/].
- sjolsen 12y ago
  > tray icons Some end up being minuscule (I'm looking at a ~1px-wide ownCloud icon right now) and the location is definitely non-obvious. I didn't even know Gnome 3 had a system tray for about a month, until I accidentally pulled it up. > alt+drag to move/resize windows This is not enabled by default, and there's no way to enable it in the default settings manager. I think gnome-tweak-tool has added support, but I had to dig around in dconf to enable it not too long ago. > even alt+tab don't work out-of-the-box Alt-Tabbing in Gnome 3 is fscked. You're expected to use Alt-~ to switch between windows of the same "application," while Alt-Tab only switches between application-group-things. You can fix it with a plugin, but you have to fix it with a plugin. That's ridiculous. > Window focus seems completely broken New windows are sometimes raised above other windows. Sometimes they're raised below. Sometimes they have focus. Sometimes they don't. I've experienced this issue with other window systems too, though, so I don't know if Gnome is to blame for it. > more often than not, their way has turned out pretty good It's something of an 80/20 scenario: yes, most of "their way" is perfectly fine, but a good chunk of it just sucks. Worse, which chunk of it sucks is different for different people and for different reasons. For example, I can't stand workspaces, but I know people who swear by them. Conversely, a lot of people prefer the old program menus, but I like the incremental search Gnome uses. This is a universal problem, and it's easily solved: give the user options. No matter how well you design an interface, it's going to be wrong in some way for someone. By all means, yes, ship sane defaults, but give your users the ability to control their workflows on their computers.

ayrx 12y ago

I consider myself a serious developer and I'm perfectly happy with Gnome 3. It's clean, simple and allows me to focus on what's really important -- my editor and terminal. Having your own opinions is fine but please do not generalize.

adambatkin 12y ago
Out of curiosity, what theme do you use? I really wanted to be happy with Gnome 3, but the focus issues (strange stacking order issues, sometimes closing dialogs would leave no window with focus, launching certain apps with global hotkeys wouldn't bring them to the front) made it impossible for me to keep track of what I was trying to do. I'm curious if maybe there's something about my setup that's different than everyone else (because I know there are plenty of people who are happy with it) or if maybe I'm more keyboard oriented or something.
- ayrx 12y ago
  The default GNOME 3 that comes with Fedora 20. My needs from a DE is minimal. I spend 90% of my time alt-tabbing between my browser and editor with my terminal a F12 away (Guake is awesome). GNOME 3 simply gets out of my way and lets me focus on what is important.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

sjolsen 12y ago

A lot of this reflects something I've noticed about development in the Gnome world: they decide exactly how interfaces should be used, and lock that in. As time progresses, they drop more and more customizability out of their products, and as a result, you're increasingly left with a choice between doing things their way, or mucking around in their re-envisioning of the Windows Registry or even program source code. A big one for me is keyboard input: at one point, I could use the Super key for whatever I liked, and I could easily set the right Alt key to be a Compose key. Now, there is no reclaiming the Super key from hard-coded shortcuts (Unity is even worse about this!), and the Compose key is outright missing from the keyboard settings menu. The obvious fix is simply not to use Gnome. I'm personally partial to Openbox; it's amenable to customization in a way I don't think Gnome will ever be again. The problem is that with the flurry of new system(d?) technologies -- dbus, policykit, consolekit, who knows what the hell else -- nothing works. I can't even mount removable drives from any file manager under an Openbox session now. At the moment, Gnome is the only system sufficiently tightly coupled into this stuff to work at all, and that's frustrating.

elehack 12y ago
> A big one for me is keyboard input: at one point, I could use the Super key for whatever I liked, and I could easily set the right Alt key to be a Compose key. Now, there is no reclaiming the Super key from hard-coded shortcuts (Unity is even worse about this!), and the Compose key is outright missing from the keyboard settings menu. Compose key is moved. To a non-obvious spot (if you're used to its historic location). Settings → Keyboard → Shortcuts, the ‘Typing’ section. There's ‘Compose key’, which lets you set the compose key. It's also in a more traditional form in Gnome Tweak Tool.
- sjolsen 12y ago
  > Settings → Keyboard → Shortcuts, the ‘Typing’ section Thank you! > a non-obvious spot No kidding; the Compose key being an actual key, it really belongs with the rest of the keyboard mapping settings. I guess since they removed that section altogether, they had to stick it somewhere. > It's also in a more traditional form in Gnome Tweak Tool. Not anywhere I can see, but that's not a big deal.

girvo 12y ago

I feel the same way. Gnome 3's ideas are interesting, but execution leaves a bit to be desired; When I use it, it feels like I'm fighting it to get it work nicely, and as a developer I don't want to spend my time doing that. Funnily enough, Unity and Elementary OS's DE have the same "sane defaults and 'intuitive' interface" idea, but both of them have executed it better in my opinion.

gadr90 12y ago

Interesting. I've used Ubuntu for years before Unity, switched between Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu with Unity, Linux Mint Cinnamon, Linux Mint MATE... and finally, as of last week, I've been using Ubuntu Gnome. It was, of all the above mentioned, the first to give me a fluid desktop performance with decent aesthetics and all functionality I have grown accostumed to. I'm particularly fond of: * Alt + drag work really well, specially dragging into borders with automatic resize. The lack of this feature in MATE was a daily pain for me. * Login screen actually has useful information (even HipChat notifications!) and is really accessible - it opens up whether I scroll or simply start typing my password. * The search box is, for a change (from Unity), actually smart. When I say "home", it knows precisely what I mean. * All my tools work perfectly. IntelliJ WebStorm, HipChat, Chrome, the terminal... Even Spotify Linux Preview works like a charm. I have had TWO minor hiccups: * Bluetooth needed some extra modules installed. After that, everything worked fine. * Workspaces would not behave appropriately with external monitor. One command solved that. So, for now, Ubuntu Gnome is definitely my distro of choice. [edited for formatting]

detrino 12y ago

I had a similar experience with Gnome 3, it looked nice but was always difficult to use despite trying for many months. I suggest taking a look at Mate. I moved to it after finally giving up on Gnome 3 and have been very happy. Here are some of my complaints from a previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7723073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7723073

LeoPanthera 12y ago

> If I wanted a desktop that valued form over function, I'd use a Mac. If you did use a Mac, you'd find form and function. It is possible to have both.

sigmaml 12y ago
You'd have to acknowledge that it is subjective, though. After using OS X for a few years, I switched back to Kubuntu. The driver was that form was eclipsing function. It was becoming increasingly difficult to make OS X function `my way'. I had to resort to third-party applications for almost everything. That reduced the value of the OS itself to near zero.

kentonv 12y ago

I use and love GNOME 3, and I think I'm a serious developer. I love the simplicity. I love that jamming the mouse into the upper-right is the way to bring up all the application launching and window management UI, and the rest of the time it's out of the way. I love that it actually feels innovative, in that the design isn't just ripped off from some other OS. I love that non-essential features are relegated to extensions, keeping the core pure. IIRC the problem with Eclipse is that it still uses gtk2, and thus gtk3 themes and config won't affect it. You have to manually edit the gtk2 settings to apply a reasonable theme. Ironically KDE can control gtk2 from its own control panel, but GNOME 3 cannot. Oh well. Personally, I don't understand how any serious developer can use Mac OSX, yet almost every developer I meet these days in fact uses it, so... perhaps we are just projecting.

fixedd 12y ago
Also, you can (once again) use the keyboard for almost everything. Want to open an app? Press super and start typing it's name!
- swah 12y ago
  I also use this extensively in Windows 7 and OSX.
emsy 12y ago
Ever used a Mac? I've used GNOME 3 for 1.5 years and it was terrible.
- kentonv 12y ago
  I have had some form of Mac that I used on a regular basis for at least six of the last nine years. FWIW, GNOME 3 has improved massively in the last year or two.

vacri 12y ago

I too moved to KDE recently, and couldn't be (much) happier. Guh-nome has it's "you're an idiot" philosophy, which I find really painful. XFCE still has some rough corners. KDE is a traditional heavyweight desktop that is well-supported. Heaps of old-school customisability, allowing me to tweak it to my workflow, rather than corral me into its workflow. Sad to see Debian not continuing with the shift to XFCE (I'd prefer KDE, but I think the lightweight DE is the better way to go for a 'universal' distro). Maybe with the next release? I also use gkrellm, but only for gkrellm-bfm :)

reedlaw 12y ago

I feel the same way towards Macs. Macs "just work" out of the box until you try to customize anything or install up to date dev tools. Gnome 3 works out of the box (for me at least). Plus you have source code if you need to debug or customize anything. I use Arch Linux which is not exactly easy to install. As soon as I install Gnome, however, the user experience becomes as easy as a Mac, but with a powerful Linux engine underneath. I am free to install the latest kernels and packages plus I have a desktop that a non-Linux user can use. Personally, I don't care too much about the Desktop Environment, as long as it doesn't get in my way. Gnome 3 allows me to use as much or as little as I want. I normally use command line tools, but in a pinch I can use the Display Manager or Network Manager to get set up in a different environment.

dysfunction 12y ago
Installing up to date dev tools is easily done on Mac with Homebrew.

WoodenChair 12y ago

Interestingly, one of the creators of Gnome switched to a Mac. http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2013/Mar-05.html http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2013/Mar-05.html

pmahoney 12y ago
But none of the reasons he lists have much to do with Gnome: > Machine would suspend and resume without problem, WiFi just worked, audio did not stop working, ... [no] fighting the video drivers
- WoodenChair 12y ago
  Well it speaks to the OP's comment about Macs being "Form over Function."
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

jmhain 12y ago

I'd consider myself a serious developer and I love GNOME 3. > Focused and unfocused windows look almost identical I have never had a problem distinguishing. > Expected features like tray icons, virtual desktops, alt+drag to move/resize windows, even alt+tab don't work out-of-the-box All of the above work perfectly fine. I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. > Window focus seems completely broken You'll have to be more specific here; works fine for me. > IntelliJ's menus don't track the moue properly - again, probably a Java issue, but still works great under KDE I had issues with IntelliJ until I switched from OpenJDK to the Oracle JDK. Now it works fine (though a bit ugly). > Having to "drag" the screensaver thing away is annoying You're doing it wrong. Just start typing your password and it goes away. Some of the developers definitely do have a bad attitude, but many are actually quite awesome. Besides, more often than not, their way has turned out pretty good.

fixedd 12y ago
I'm 100% in agreement with you here. Gnome 3 was/is, to me, the only desktop I can stand to use anymore. I will agree with OP's complaint about alt-tab though... I had to install [Coverflow Alt-Tab|https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/97/coverflow-alt-tab/ https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/97/coverflow-alt-tab/].
sjolsen 12y ago
> tray icons Some end up being minuscule (I'm looking at a ~1px-wide ownCloud icon right now) and the location is definitely non-obvious. I didn't even know Gnome 3 had a system tray for about a month, until I accidentally pulled it up. > alt+drag to move/resize windows This is not enabled by default, and there's no way to enable it in the default settings manager. I think gnome-tweak-tool has added support, but I had to dig around in dconf to enable it not too long ago. > even alt+tab don't work out-of-the-box Alt-Tabbing in Gnome 3 is fscked. You're expected to use Alt-~ to switch between windows of the same "application," while Alt-Tab only switches between application-group-things. You can fix it with a plugin, but you have to fix it with a plugin. That's ridiculous. > Window focus seems completely broken New windows are sometimes raised above other windows. Sometimes they're raised below. Sometimes they have focus. Sometimes they don't. I've experienced this issue with other window systems too, though, so I don't know if Gnome is to blame for it. > more often than not, their way has turned out pretty good It's something of an 80/20 scenario: yes, most of "their way" is perfectly fine, but a good chunk of it just sucks. Worse, which chunk of it sucks is different for different people and for different reasons. For example, I can't stand workspaces, but I know people who swear by them. Conversely, a lot of people prefer the old program menus, but I like the incremental search Gnome uses. This is a universal problem, and it's easily solved: give the user options. No matter how well you design an interface, it's going to be wrong in some way for someone. By all means, yes, ship sane defaults, but give your users the ability to control their workflows on their computers.