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The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syr

The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. For example, I witnessed an honor killing in 2002. It was done in the middle of the village with all the inhabitants cheering. Not sure you'd get the same reaction if you did that in Times Square. Will happily read the wikipedia article.

justin66 12y ago
> You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. You're slurring an entire ethnic group. I can see where that would be a useful component for justifying rights violations to yourself but hopefully you can see why we wouldn't want the US to take any part whatsoever.
- bengrunfeld 12y ago
  I can understand your outrage at such a comment - it is a very western response. But have you lived in an Arab country, specifically a Muslim one? Or even an Arab neighborhood? Have you been a part of an Arab community for a prolonged period? I have. These ideals of pluralism and equality work wonderfully in novellas about utopian human co-existance, but they simply aren't reality. The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. That is one of the main reasons that the US was completely unsuccessful in their political endeavors in the Middle East, and which everything from Lebanon to Iran looks like a well-cooked pot of shit-stew right now. If westerners better understood the Arab mindset, as it applies in countries in the middle east, we would live in a more peaceful world.
  - justin66 12y ago
    > The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. The Arabs I've known ARE American students. It only takes a single example to disprove a universal statement about "The Arabs." (or The Blacks, or The Jews, etc.) They've usually been great people that I like a lot.
    - bengrunfeld 12y ago
      So you've met one or two American Arab students, studying in nice universities, and that dictates the social norms that spread across the middle east?? Wow man, I want some of what you're smoking. Please, go and visit Yemen, visit Afghanistan, even visit Jordan for heaven's sake, and you'll find that the reality of the Middle East can't be understood from within a college cafe in upstate California. There are powerful cultural rules at play in Arab society that the west has no conception of, and I think that if you get a good look at them up close, it will completely change your perspective.
      - selimthegrim 12y ago
        You know, dealing with people like they're out of a Leon Uris novel is a great way to make sure the status quo never changes.
        bengrunfeld 12y ago
        Not to flame or anything, but that really doesn't make any sense.
        selimthegrim 12y ago
        Anecdotal stories of Arab primitivism and lack of state/societal secularism doesn't mean progressive currents will never win out. I'm sure Europe in 1648 was depressing as fuck too.
        12y ago
ggg999 12y ago
You paint too simple a picture. And, if you go back to before the (successful and on-going) attempt to ethnically purge Palestine by European Jewish immigrants, you will see that Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule. In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created. The rest was stolen. Homes were stolen at gunpoint. The Israelis repeatedly engage in massacres of the Palestinian and Lebanese civilians to this day. Resistance should be expected. And, with the level of violence perpetrated by Israelis, a violent resistance is understandable. The death toll for civilians is pretty lopsided. In just the massacre of operation cast lead, the Israelis murdered nearly 1500 people, nearly 450 children. Israel suffered 3 civilian deaths in retribution. Again and again, the Israelis call for evacuation to U.N. schools, then bomb the schools. Once a mistake, twice maybe a mistake, but we are well beyond twice. IDF soldiers wear t-shirts with a picture of a pregnant woman in cross-hairs with (in Hebrew), "one bullet two kills" Israel recently even apologized (therefore admitted to) harvesting organs from Palestinian prisoners for transplant into Jews. The Israelis even use their massacre of civilians as a selling point for their weapons exports, "battle tested in Gaza." The Israelis are the terrorists by any objective measure. There was a poll in Haaretz that showed overwhelming support by Israelis of the cast lead massacre. The percentage in support of the massacre was exactly the Jewish population of Israel. So, complete justification to paint in a very broad brush. The Israelis have Jewish only roads. And there are around 30 laws that give special treatment to Jews over other citizens. And, if you want to be truly disgusted, visit some of the Palestinian villages neighboring Jewish settler towns-- you will see things like the Jewish settlers directing their raw sewage into the Palestinian village below (well what is left of the Palestinian village with the constant raids by Jewish terrorist settlers, and Israeli military). Jewish settlers walk around everywhere with powerful weapons intimidating the Palestinians who are not permitted to do the same. Ugliest place I have ever been (Every Arab I met there was kind and generous, and even in refugee camps, I never heard a hateful word about the Israeli Jews, the other way, I only met two Israeli Jews [out of 10s] who did not make some sort of slur). Only place I have zero desire to ever return to.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  This was propaganda from a karma 9 account. I'll touch some points but I think that there are too many fanatics on this subject, it doesn't work on HN. (I got a couple of comments first upvoted and then down voted a bunch of points, so I guess this will go the same way.) >>In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created. More Jews were thrown out of the Muslim countries than Palestinians fled. (And not in a burning civil war, but from cold blooded racism.) The possessions stolen from those Jews included land area multiple times the size of Israel. Most of those Jews fled to Israel. So how about a reasonable view -- do a swap and call it even? The Palestinians get some of the resources stolen by their allied Muslim countries? Why is that bad? >>Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule. This is in fact true now... Since most every Jew were thrown out of the Muslim world because of what some other Jews did, there are none to persecute.. Worth reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Modern_examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism#Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism#Mohammad... It is easy to find more. >> IDF soldiers wear t-shirts with a picture of a pregnant woman in cross-hairs [...] You demonise a country for what some individuals do. What do you then say about about officially sanctioned racist hatred, copied from the Nazis?! Like the Arab countries... In state controlled media. The previous Egyptian president spoke about the importance of teaching your children to hate Jews... And so on. So how many hundreds of times worse is that? You're not a dishonest hypocrite with different standards for different sides, are you? >> [Latest Gaza war] - Started by Hamas, which also gave murderers of three children a hero status. (Note that some Israelis did a revenge murder -- and will end up in jail.) - Shooting from civilian areas -- at civilians. (There are empty areas in Gaza: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-density http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-densi... ) - http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-it-fired-rockets-from-civilian-areas/380149/ http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-i... - Ah... No. Waste of time and damaging HN. :-( (Also worth mentioning is how the Muslim world kept the Palestinians in camps and refused to integrate them for generations. Just to keep the hatred going. Smart, since most every other land loss from WWII is forgotten. Just a pity they destroyed so many lives to do it. Arguably, much worse than anything the Israelis ever did to the Palestinians, even in your description...)

justin66 12y ago

> You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. You're slurring an entire ethnic group. I can see where that would be a useful component for justifying rights violations to yourself but hopefully you can see why we wouldn't want the US to take any part whatsoever.

bengrunfeld 12y ago
I can understand your outrage at such a comment - it is a very western response. But have you lived in an Arab country, specifically a Muslim one? Or even an Arab neighborhood? Have you been a part of an Arab community for a prolonged period? I have. These ideals of pluralism and equality work wonderfully in novellas about utopian human co-existance, but they simply aren't reality. The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. That is one of the main reasons that the US was completely unsuccessful in their political endeavors in the Middle East, and which everything from Lebanon to Iran looks like a well-cooked pot of shit-stew right now. If westerners better understood the Arab mindset, as it applies in countries in the middle east, we would live in a more peaceful world.
- justin66 12y ago
  > The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. The Arabs I've known ARE American students. It only takes a single example to disprove a universal statement about "The Arabs." (or The Blacks, or The Jews, etc.) They've usually been great people that I like a lot.
  - bengrunfeld 12y ago
    So you've met one or two American Arab students, studying in nice universities, and that dictates the social norms that spread across the middle east?? Wow man, I want some of what you're smoking. Please, go and visit Yemen, visit Afghanistan, even visit Jordan for heaven's sake, and you'll find that the reality of the Middle East can't be understood from within a college cafe in upstate California. There are powerful cultural rules at play in Arab society that the west has no conception of, and I think that if you get a good look at them up close, it will completely change your perspective.
    - selimthegrim 12y ago
      You know, dealing with people like they're out of a Leon Uris novel is a great way to make sure the status quo never changes.
      - bengrunfeld 12y ago
        Not to flame or anything, but that really doesn't make any sense.
        selimthegrim 12y ago
        Anecdotal stories of Arab primitivism and lack of state/societal secularism doesn't mean progressive currents will never win out. I'm sure Europe in 1648 was depressing as fuck too.
        12y ago

ggg999 12y ago

You paint too simple a picture. And, if you go back to before the (successful and on-going) attempt to ethnically purge Palestine by European Jewish immigrants, you will see that Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule. In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created. The rest was stolen. Homes were stolen at gunpoint. The Israelis repeatedly engage in massacres of the Palestinian and Lebanese civilians to this day. Resistance should be expected. And, with the level of violence perpetrated by Israelis, a violent resistance is understandable. The death toll for civilians is pretty lopsided. In just the massacre of operation cast lead, the Israelis murdered nearly 1500 people, nearly 450 children. Israel suffered 3 civilian deaths in retribution. Again and again, the Israelis call for evacuation to U.N. schools, then bomb the schools. Once a mistake, twice maybe a mistake, but we are well beyond twice. IDF soldiers wear t-shirts with a picture of a pregnant woman in cross-hairs with (in Hebrew), "one bullet two kills" Israel recently even apologized (therefore admitted to) harvesting organs from Palestinian prisoners for transplant into Jews. The Israelis even use their massacre of civilians as a selling point for their weapons exports, "battle tested in Gaza." The Israelis are the terrorists by any objective measure. There was a poll in Haaretz that showed overwhelming support by Israelis of the cast lead massacre. The percentage in support of the massacre was exactly the Jewish population of Israel. So, complete justification to paint in a very broad brush. The Israelis have Jewish only roads. And there are around 30 laws that give special treatment to Jews over other citizens. And, if you want to be truly disgusted, visit some of the Palestinian villages neighboring Jewish settler towns-- you will see things like the Jewish settlers directing their raw sewage into the Palestinian village below (well what is left of the Palestinian village with the constant raids by Jewish terrorist settlers, and Israeli military). Jewish settlers walk around everywhere with powerful weapons intimidating the Palestinians who are not permitted to do the same. Ugliest place I have ever been (Every Arab I met there was kind and generous, and even in refugee camps, I never heard a hateful word about the Israeli Jews, the other way, I only met two Israeli Jews [out of 10s] who did not make some sort of slur). Only place I have zero desire to ever return to.

BugBrother 12y ago
This was propaganda from a karma 9 account. I'll touch some points but I think that there are too many fanatics on this subject, it doesn't work on HN. (I got a couple of comments first upvoted and then down voted a bunch of points, so I guess this will go the same way.) >>In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created. More Jews were thrown out of the Muslim countries than Palestinians fled. (And not in a burning civil war, but from cold blooded racism.) The possessions stolen from those Jews included land area multiple times the size of Israel. Most of those Jews fled to Israel. So how about a reasonable view -- do a swap and call it even? The Palestinians get some of the resources stolen by their allied Muslim countries? Why is that bad? >>Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule. This is in fact true now... Since most every Jew were thrown out of the Muslim world because of what some other Jews did, there are none to persecute.. Worth reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Modern_examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism#Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism#Mohammad... It is easy to find more. >> IDF soldiers wear t-shirts with a picture of a pregnant woman in cross-hairs [...] You demonise a country for what some individuals do. What do you then say about about officially sanctioned racist hatred, copied from the Nazis?! Like the Arab countries... In state controlled media. The previous Egyptian president spoke about the importance of teaching your children to hate Jews... And so on. So how many hundreds of times worse is that? You're not a dishonest hypocrite with different standards for different sides, are you? >> [Latest Gaza war] - Started by Hamas, which also gave murderers of three children a hero status. (Note that some Israelis did a revenge murder -- and will end up in jail.) - Shooting from civilian areas -- at civilians. (There are empty areas in Gaza: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-density http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-densi... ) - http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-it-fired-rockets-from-civilian-areas/380149/ http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-i... - Ah... No. Waste of time and damaging HN. :-( (Also worth mentioning is how the Muslim world kept the Palestinians in camps and refused to integrate them for generations. Just to keep the hatred going. Smart, since most every other land loss from WWII is forgotten. Just a pity they destroyed so many lives to do it. Arguably, much worse than anything the Israelis ever did to the Palestinians, even in your description...)