9 ms·

You make it sound like Israel is just a victim here, getting terrorized, when in fact they have the Palestinians sequestered into ghettos and denied basic human

by dismal2 12y ago

You make it sound like Israel is just a victim here, getting terrorized, when in fact they have the Palestinians sequestered into ghettos and denied basic human rights like food, water, medicine. The violence is a symptom on inhumane treatment, not simply the cause of "evil doers". I won't even being to respond to your sensationalized argument about saving children being a justification for mass invasion of privacy with no oversight.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
BugBrother 12y ago
I think that the borders with Gaza and the West Bank were very open, people commuted and travelled to buy stuff etc. After the second Intifada, the stops went up to hinder very common attacks on civilians. This stopped a quite integrated economy -- and caused problems on the Israeli side, too. (I am no expert, I follow the subject just to find out how non-serious my native Swedish media are. So I'm probably pro-Israel, since I literally look for the stuff censored from Swedish media. You seem like you should learn Swedish? :-) )
bengrunfeld 12y ago
The violence isn't a symptom of their treatment. IS, Al-Qaeda, and Hizballah aren't "sequestered into ghettos" and they happily indulge in the same violence as Hamas. Maybe you should visit Israel and have a Falafel?
- dismal2 12y ago
  Western involvement cannot be ignored in analysis of the middle east ever since the end of WW1. Extremism is the product of continuos destabilization of democracies, funding of extremist groups and puppet regimes. Pick pretty much any country, specifically ones that the Western powers have been having their war of terror in recently and look at the history. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc, etc. Al Qaeda was created to fight the Soviets and backfired, IS could be seen as an offshoot from funding extremists in Syria at the end of Bush's presidency to overthrow Assad. Unless you prefer to believe that an entire racial group is just predisposed to committing acts of terror... You might find this wikipedia article interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re...
  - bengrunfeld 12y ago
    The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. For example, I witnessed an honor killing in 2002. It was done in the middle of the village with all the inhabitants cheering. Not sure you'd get the same reaction if you did that in Times Square. Will happily read the wikipedia article.
    - justin66 12y ago
      > You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. You're slurring an entire ethnic group. I can see where that would be a useful component for justifying rights violations to yourself but hopefully you can see why we wouldn't want the US to take any part whatsoever.
      - bengrunfeld 12y ago
        I can understand your outrage at such a comment - it is a very western response. But have you lived in an Arab country, specifically a Muslim one? Or even an Arab neighborhood? Have you been a part of an Arab community for a prolonged period? I have. These ideals of pluralism and equality work wonderfully in novellas about utopian human co-existance, but they simply aren't reality. The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. That is one of the main reasons that the US was completely unsuccessful in their political endeavors in the Middle East, and which everything from Lebanon to Iran looks like a well-cooked pot of shit-stew right now. If westerners better understood the Arab mindset, as it applies in countries in the middle east, we would live in a more peaceful world.
        12y ago

by dismal2 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

BugBrother 12y ago

I think that the borders with Gaza and the West Bank were very open, people commuted and travelled to buy stuff etc. After the second Intifada, the stops went up to hinder very common attacks on civilians. This stopped a quite integrated economy -- and caused problems on the Israeli side, too. (I am no expert, I follow the subject just to find out how non-serious my native Swedish media are. So I'm probably pro-Israel, since I literally look for the stuff censored from Swedish media. You seem like you should learn Swedish? :-) )

bengrunfeld 12y ago

The violence isn't a symptom of their treatment. IS, Al-Qaeda, and Hizballah aren't "sequestered into ghettos" and they happily indulge in the same violence as Hamas. Maybe you should visit Israel and have a Falafel?

dismal2 12y ago
Western involvement cannot be ignored in analysis of the middle east ever since the end of WW1. Extremism is the product of continuos destabilization of democracies, funding of extremist groups and puppet regimes. Pick pretty much any country, specifically ones that the Western powers have been having their war of terror in recently and look at the history. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc, etc. Al Qaeda was created to fight the Soviets and backfired, IS could be seen as an offshoot from funding extremists in Syria at the end of Bush's presidency to overthrow Assad. Unless you prefer to believe that an entire racial group is just predisposed to committing acts of terror... You might find this wikipedia article interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re...
- bengrunfeld 12y ago
  The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. For example, I witnessed an honor killing in 2002. It was done in the middle of the village with all the inhabitants cheering. Not sure you'd get the same reaction if you did that in Times Square. Will happily read the wikipedia article.
  - justin66 12y ago
    > You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. You're slurring an entire ethnic group. I can see where that would be a useful component for justifying rights violations to yourself but hopefully you can see why we wouldn't want the US to take any part whatsoever.
    - bengrunfeld 12y ago
      I can understand your outrage at such a comment - it is a very western response. But have you lived in an Arab country, specifically a Muslim one? Or even an Arab neighborhood? Have you been a part of an Arab community for a prolonged period? I have. These ideals of pluralism and equality work wonderfully in novellas about utopian human co-existance, but they simply aren't reality. The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. That is one of the main reasons that the US was completely unsuccessful in their political endeavors in the Middle East, and which everything from Lebanon to Iran looks like a well-cooked pot of shit-stew right now. If westerners better understood the Arab mindset, as it applies in countries in the middle east, we would live in a more peaceful world.
      - 12y ago