8 ms·
Irrelevant to the content of this article, which discusses historical What If scenarios, but this title and another front page story today (https://news.ycombin
by Jun8 12y ago
Irrelevant to the content of this article, which discusses historical What If scenarios, but this title and another front page story today (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8353881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8353881) reminded me of the following:
Not all languages have built in counterfactual constructions, an example is Chinese (Mandarin). Starting in the 80s and continuing into the 90s, there was a big debate about whether Chinese speakers were at a disadvantage in quickly understanding complex counterfactual statements. During those times such suggestions were relatively taboo (especially due to Chomsky's strong anti-linguistics relativism stance) but that has relaxed considerably due to the work of many researchers. A recent paper summarizing the debate on Chinese counterfactuals can be found here (http://groups.psych.northwestern.edu/gentner/papers/YehGentner05.pdf http://groups.psych.northwestern.edu/gentner/papers/YehGentn...).
An example from that paper that compares a counterfactual statements in English and Chinese:
“If I had gone to the movies that evening, I could not have
had dinner with my mom.”
The counterfactual mode is signaled by having the verb of the suppositional clause in the past perfect tense and that of the main clause in the conditional form.
The Chinese equivalent is
“Ru guo wo na tien wan shan qu kan le dien ying, wo jiu
bu neng gen wo ma qu chi wan fan.”
This translates roughly to the English: If that night I go watch
(past particle) a movie, I then cannot accompany my mom to
go eat dinner.
In Chinese, which lacks verb inflections, a counterfactual
is signaled by comparing the tense information—e.g., the past
tense particle (le) after the verb—with contextual information
as to whether the event actually occurred. The second clause
is simply a consequence clause; it has no internal marker of
counterfactuality.
- Tloewald 12y agoThe question is whether the listener understands that the statement is counterfactual. E.g. If an English speaker says, if Gore had been elected in 2000 we never invaded Iraq, most English speakers would get the meaning anyway.
- Jun8 12y agoIt's not that Chinese listeners do not understand counterfactuals. The original researcher's (Bloom) hypothesis was that Chinese speakers have more cognitive load analyzing such statements so if asked to analyze complicated small counterfactual stories under time pressure they would perform worse than English speakers.
- Tloewald 12y agoThat's probably debatable too. Most of the exotic tenses in English are wordy constructs "building" the tense out of simpler tenses. He wound have gone to dinner with mom vs. he went(hypothetical tense, assuming previous clause) to dinner with mom. A chinese speaker might say I go to movie tomorrow, versus. I will go to the movie tomorrow. Which is harder to parse? Is parsing English "tenses" so much easier? OTOH is needing to remember even more tenses for more irregular verbs easier? It's an interesting hypothesis, but hardly a foregone conclusion.