>> "From a scientific standpoint, we cannot say whether these movements were causes or effects." > The causation is usually quite clear Not in a scientific se

>> "From a scientific standpoint, we cannot say whether these movements were causes or effects." > The causation is usually quite clear Not in a scientific sense, not at all. Your post objects to positions I didn't take. My only point is that most of these movements took place when they did because they had become historical inevitabilities, not that the movements themselves had no real effect, which no one can confirm nor deny.