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Excellent how this problem is continuously attempted to be solved. As a wannabe programmer, one thing I always lacked from these sites was the ability to someh

by MrJagil 12y ago

Excellent how this problem is continuously attempted to be solved. As a wannabe programmer, one thing I always lacked from these sites was the ability to somehow see my code live. I.e. it's fun to write html and css on codecademy or python from LPTHW or whatever but how on earth do I get it on the web or assembled into .app? In actuality, the complexity that surrounds DNS providers, server apps (or whatever you call filezilla etc), server providers (here i mean heroku, AWS, Cloudflare etc), those weird githubs and repos that people chat about etc etc, is way more deterring than actually learning what a "class" is. Learning is fun; endless googling is not.

tim333 12y ago
There are some fairly easy ways to get some code up if you go for the easiest solutions. eg web2py/pythonanywhere.com for Python, http://www.appgyver.com/ http://www.appgyver.com/ for javascript/phonegap apps
- Spearchucker 12y ago
  And here is my problem with both learning sites like this and search engines like Google. If I search for hosting JavaScript, appgyver.com doesn't feature in the results. In that scenario search is broken.
  - zo1 12y ago
    That's because there is a complete disconnect between "javascript hosting" and "AppGyver". Try being more specific: Search for: "hosting html5 javascript steroids.js" Because AppGyver seems to be related to some sort of JS framework called steroids.js. I'm not going to do it for you, but presumably there is a logical search chain that gets you from "javascript" or "javascript framework" to "Steroids.js". Yes, I search a lot. It's the third most useful tool I have at my human disposal, just after "touch-typing" and "problem-solving ability".
    - Spearchucker 12y ago
      I do the same. Axiomatically, Exercism.io's target audience will not have the experience or knowledge to do that.
- MrJagil 12y ago
  The deal is, there is no way for a beginner to come to that conclusion after finishing a given tutorial. The different solutions are separated. It is not a continuous flow. HTML/CSS/Javascript(/php) are luckily taught in succession and tandem, but rarely with the hosting, naming, storing, sharing aspects integrated. It should be: html -> css -> Javascript (-> php) -> Hover(DNS) -> AWS(server) -> Final assembly -> Live product! -> github -> promotion/advertising/fluff
  - tim333 12y ago
    By the way I kind of recommend "The Complete Web Developer Course - Build 14 Websites Web development from scratch in 6 weeks. HTML, JS, CSS, PHP, MySQL, Bootstrap, Wordpress, APIs, Mobile Apps all covered." On Udemy. Available for $10 until friday pm (says usual price $199 but there's usually a discount on) and includes a year or so of hosting on Rob the teachers servers. I've been doing some bits myself. He also has a how to earn money while doing it by pitching your services on elance guide. It has detailed instructions to get the stuff up on the servers, for web at any rate. https://www.udemy.com/complete-web-developer-course/?hb=get10deal&couponCode=get10deal&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email_promo_coup&utm_content=2014-09-22_TA_get_started_10deal&utm_campaign=email_promo&utm_term=promo_coursecard_title https://www.udemy.com/complete-web-developer-course/?hb=get1...
philbarr 12y ago
It would probably be pretty easy to create a tutorial that gets someone to set up a github account, introduces the basics of git/html/css/javascript, and ends up with the tutee having a Github Page that demonstrates what they've done exposed to the world on the internet. Include the DNS setup via cloudflare if they want to buy their own domain. Are there not tutorials like that? And then there would be next steps, using free tiers of online services to add a backend etc. There's quite a lot of places to go from there though. What would be best?
- talkingquickly 12y ago
  That's basically what we do with https://www.makeitwithcode.com https://www.makeitwithcode.com, we take people through building things and teach them theory as they go along. Then we go through deploying something to Heroku etc as part of subsequent lessons, so by the end they've got a mixture of the theoretical stuff as well as the more practical "how do I make this be on the internet". I think there's a few others which also follow the approach of each lesson essentially culminating in a new portfolio piece.
  - exhilaration 12y ago
    Your website isn't clear - is there a cost?
    - arash_milani 12y ago
      on the homepage bottom-right it says: The course costs just $200. If, during the course, you feel you're not getting value for money, we'll give you a refund. You'll get a lesson a week for 10 weeks. The lessons are text-format, combining a balance of challenges with instruction.
pjmlp 12y ago
> Learning is fun; endless googling is not. At least you have Google, Bing, Yahoo, ... Kids these days. :)
enraged_camel 12y ago
This is why I loved the Rails Tutorial when I did it about a year ago: it doesn't teach you just writing code, but also testing that code, managing it in a version control system, uploading it to Github and deploying it on Heroku. It's basically an "end-to-end" guide that explains each step of the way thoroughly. https://www.railstutorial.org/ https://www.railstutorial.org/
GuiA 12y ago
And this is why I always use PHP as an introductory language if I have to teach web dev; the setup part is much more straightforward than it is for Rails/Django/etc., and you don't have to spend a ton of time teaching dozens of concepts (MVC, routes, templating, git, unit tests, ORMs, etc.) before the students can have mini web apps written. Some programmers balk at the idea of teaching PHP with plain HTML/CSS instead of teaching using Rails + Angular + all the fancy crap they like, but I've taught web dev to over 500+ students in the past 7+ years (and programming/CS to about twice that), and it's worked like a charm (and the people who get the most upset by that notion are often those who have taught 0 students). My girlfriend is an art teacher, and when they teach new students they don't start right away with watercolor or oil paints; rather, they start with materials that are easier to handle for beginners (e.g. plain pencil), so they can focus on the basics before tackling the more subtle and advanced techniques. Why are we trying to teach programming using all the fancy tools and technologies used in production systems?
- roywiggins 12y ago
  Flask. Flask Flask Flask. It's well-documented, in Python, and you can push it to Heroku easy as pie. You can add things like templates (they're built in, and can be really simple) or just concatenate HTML the old-fashioned way. You can program very imperatively and work up to abstractions. It's very friendly. I haven't seen it used as an introductory "language" but I feel like it would work well.
  - agumonkey 12y ago
    Also blueprints, a good exercise in separation of concerns, flexibility etc
  - vegggdor 12y ago
    > and the people who get the most upset by that notion are often those who have taught 0 students Does that apply to you?
    - recursive 12y ago
JonnieCache 12y ago
>In actuality, the complexity that surrounds DNS providers, server apps (or whatever you call filezilla etc), server providers (here i mean heroku, AWS, Cloudflare etc), those weird githubs and repos that people chat about etc etc, is way more deterring than actually learning what a "class" is. That stuff is 80% of practical software engineering. The other 20% is communicating with other people. If you want to be good at your job, you've got to put in the hours to learn the stuff that isn't in the books. The same as any other skilled career. If you want to worry about the niceties of programming languages all day, go into academia.
- MrJagil 12y ago
  Exactly! If 80% of practical software engineering is what i described above, then how come no one is teaching it! Also, I feel we are talking about students quite a few steps below the stage where engineer vs. academia discussions become relevant.
  - JonnieCache 12y ago
    There's no decent way (IMO) to learn generic problem solving skills other than solving a lot of problems for yourself. That's what worries me about these bootcamp things. The comment about academia was a bit silly, true. I was trying to say that it's the only place where you can have the luxury of thinking about "pure" programming as a primary concern.
    - MrJagil 12y ago
      > There's no decent way (IMO) to learn generic problem solving skills other than solving a lot of problems for yourself. That's what worries me about these bootcamp things. Hm, though I see your point, and agree that "googling" is an actual skill you can acquire and improve by yourself, I feel it's not that different from any other skill, generic or not. I mean, before structure dawned upon playing piano or coding, to learn, the task was problem solving. To me, there's no essential difference between "this note sounds wrong, why is that, let me try another one" to "how do I get my damn website online". If one beginner's learning process can have structure, why not the other's.
Nicholas_C 12y ago
I really got bogged down with that crap when learning python as well. I love coding but there was a point when I was launching my apps and there was just one thing after another that was slightly wrong and taking quite a bit of time to Google/find/fix them. That was my main problem with Django. I've since been using flask with PythonAnywhere[0] (I don't work for or have any connection to them other than being a casual user) and it's extremely simple to launch an app compared to alternatives that I've looked at. It makes writing web apps fun because you can focus on coding and not wondering why your templates aren't loading or whatever. [0]https://www.pythonanywhere.com/ https://www.pythonanywhere.com/
zo1 12y ago
"Learning is fun; endless googling is not." Searching for knowledge/information, discovering domain-specific terms, then finding their definitions... these are all very important parts of learning. Any time I've had to get into a new domain, I start off with searching. Then you discover new terms specific to that domain, then you learn those terms, then you apply those terms to learn more in-depth topics about the domain you're learning about. Before you know it, you're a jack of a new domain (or more than a jack, if you put the time in).
rattray 12y ago
I'm working on a book that targets this. Hit me up (email in profile) if you're interested in a spot of "beta testing" =)

by MrJagil 12y ago

tim333 12y ago

There are some fairly easy ways to get some code up if you go for the easiest solutions. eg web2py/pythonanywhere.com for Python, http://www.appgyver.com/ http://www.appgyver.com/ for javascript/phonegap apps

Spearchucker 12y ago
And here is my problem with both learning sites like this and search engines like Google. If I search for hosting JavaScript, appgyver.com doesn't feature in the results. In that scenario search is broken.
- zo1 12y ago
  That's because there is a complete disconnect between "javascript hosting" and "AppGyver". Try being more specific: Search for: "hosting html5 javascript steroids.js" Because AppGyver seems to be related to some sort of JS framework called steroids.js. I'm not going to do it for you, but presumably there is a logical search chain that gets you from "javascript" or "javascript framework" to "Steroids.js". Yes, I search a lot. It's the third most useful tool I have at my human disposal, just after "touch-typing" and "problem-solving ability".
  - Spearchucker 12y ago
    I do the same. Axiomatically, Exercism.io's target audience will not have the experience or knowledge to do that.
MrJagil 12y ago
The deal is, there is no way for a beginner to come to that conclusion after finishing a given tutorial. The different solutions are separated. It is not a continuous flow. HTML/CSS/Javascript(/php) are luckily taught in succession and tandem, but rarely with the hosting, naming, storing, sharing aspects integrated. It should be: html -> css -> Javascript (-> php) -> Hover(DNS) -> AWS(server) -> Final assembly -> Live product! -> github -> promotion/advertising/fluff
- tim333 12y ago
  By the way I kind of recommend "The Complete Web Developer Course - Build 14 Websites Web development from scratch in 6 weeks. HTML, JS, CSS, PHP, MySQL, Bootstrap, Wordpress, APIs, Mobile Apps all covered." On Udemy. Available for $10 until friday pm (says usual price $199 but there's usually a discount on) and includes a year or so of hosting on Rob the teachers servers. I've been doing some bits myself. He also has a how to earn money while doing it by pitching your services on elance guide. It has detailed instructions to get the stuff up on the servers, for web at any rate. https://www.udemy.com/complete-web-developer-course/?hb=get10deal&couponCode=get10deal&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email_promo_coup&utm_content=2014-09-22_TA_get_started_10deal&utm_campaign=email_promo&utm_term=promo_coursecard_title https://www.udemy.com/complete-web-developer-course/?hb=get1...

philbarr 12y ago

It would probably be pretty easy to create a tutorial that gets someone to set up a github account, introduces the basics of git/html/css/javascript, and ends up with the tutee having a Github Page that demonstrates what they've done exposed to the world on the internet. Include the DNS setup via cloudflare if they want to buy their own domain. Are there not tutorials like that? And then there would be next steps, using free tiers of online services to add a backend etc. There's quite a lot of places to go from there though. What would be best?

talkingquickly 12y ago
That's basically what we do with https://www.makeitwithcode.com https://www.makeitwithcode.com, we take people through building things and teach them theory as they go along. Then we go through deploying something to Heroku etc as part of subsequent lessons, so by the end they've got a mixture of the theoretical stuff as well as the more practical "how do I make this be on the internet". I think there's a few others which also follow the approach of each lesson essentially culminating in a new portfolio piece.
- exhilaration 12y ago
  Your website isn't clear - is there a cost?
  - arash_milani 12y ago
    on the homepage bottom-right it says: The course costs just $200. If, during the course, you feel you're not getting value for money, we'll give you a refund. You'll get a lesson a week for 10 weeks. The lessons are text-format, combining a balance of challenges with instruction.

pjmlp 12y ago

> Learning is fun; endless googling is not. At least you have Google, Bing, Yahoo, ... Kids these days. :)

enraged_camel 12y ago

This is why I loved the Rails Tutorial when I did it about a year ago: it doesn't teach you just writing code, but also testing that code, managing it in a version control system, uploading it to Github and deploying it on Heroku. It's basically an "end-to-end" guide that explains each step of the way thoroughly. https://www.railstutorial.org/ https://www.railstutorial.org/

GuiA 12y ago

And this is why I always use PHP as an introductory language if I have to teach web dev; the setup part is much more straightforward than it is for Rails/Django/etc., and you don't have to spend a ton of time teaching dozens of concepts (MVC, routes, templating, git, unit tests, ORMs, etc.) before the students can have mini web apps written. Some programmers balk at the idea of teaching PHP with plain HTML/CSS instead of teaching using Rails + Angular + all the fancy crap they like, but I've taught web dev to over 500+ students in the past 7+ years (and programming/CS to about twice that), and it's worked like a charm (and the people who get the most upset by that notion are often those who have taught 0 students). My girlfriend is an art teacher, and when they teach new students they don't start right away with watercolor or oil paints; rather, they start with materials that are easier to handle for beginners (e.g. plain pencil), so they can focus on the basics before tackling the more subtle and advanced techniques. Why are we trying to teach programming using all the fancy tools and technologies used in production systems?

roywiggins 12y ago
Flask. Flask Flask Flask. It's well-documented, in Python, and you can push it to Heroku easy as pie. You can add things like templates (they're built in, and can be really simple) or just concatenate HTML the old-fashioned way. You can program very imperatively and work up to abstractions. It's very friendly. I haven't seen it used as an introductory "language" but I feel like it would work well.
- agumonkey 12y ago
  Also blueprints, a good exercise in separation of concerns, flexibility etc
- vegggdor 12y ago
  > and the people who get the most upset by that notion are often those who have taught 0 students Does that apply to you?
  - recursive 12y ago

JonnieCache 12y ago

>In actuality, the complexity that surrounds DNS providers, server apps (or whatever you call filezilla etc), server providers (here i mean heroku, AWS, Cloudflare etc), those weird githubs and repos that people chat about etc etc, is way more deterring than actually learning what a "class" is. That stuff is 80% of practical software engineering. The other 20% is communicating with other people. If you want to be good at your job, you've got to put in the hours to learn the stuff that isn't in the books. The same as any other skilled career. If you want to worry about the niceties of programming languages all day, go into academia.

MrJagil 12y ago
Exactly! If 80% of practical software engineering is what i described above, then how come no one is teaching it! Also, I feel we are talking about students quite a few steps below the stage where engineer vs. academia discussions become relevant.
- JonnieCache 12y ago
  There's no decent way (IMO) to learn generic problem solving skills other than solving a lot of problems for yourself. That's what worries me about these bootcamp things. The comment about academia was a bit silly, true. I was trying to say that it's the only place where you can have the luxury of thinking about "pure" programming as a primary concern.
  - MrJagil 12y ago
    > There's no decent way (IMO) to learn generic problem solving skills other than solving a lot of problems for yourself. That's what worries me about these bootcamp things. Hm, though I see your point, and agree that "googling" is an actual skill you can acquire and improve by yourself, I feel it's not that different from any other skill, generic or not. I mean, before structure dawned upon playing piano or coding, to learn, the task was problem solving. To me, there's no essential difference between "this note sounds wrong, why is that, let me try another one" to "how do I get my damn website online". If one beginner's learning process can have structure, why not the other's.

Nicholas_C 12y ago

I really got bogged down with that crap when learning python as well. I love coding but there was a point when I was launching my apps and there was just one thing after another that was slightly wrong and taking quite a bit of time to Google/find/fix them. That was my main problem with Django. I've since been using flask with PythonAnywhere[0] (I don't work for or have any connection to them other than being a casual user) and it's extremely simple to launch an app compared to alternatives that I've looked at. It makes writing web apps fun because you can focus on coding and not wondering why your templates aren't loading or whatever. [0]https://www.pythonanywhere.com/ https://www.pythonanywhere.com/

zo1 12y ago

"Learning is fun; endless googling is not." Searching for knowledge/information, discovering domain-specific terms, then finding their definitions... these are all very important parts of learning. Any time I've had to get into a new domain, I start off with searching. Then you discover new terms specific to that domain, then you learn those terms, then you apply those terms to learn more in-depth topics about the domain you're learning about. Before you know it, you're a jack of a new domain (or more than a jack, if you put the time in).

rattray 12y ago

I'm working on a book that targets this. Hit me up (email in profile) if you're interested in a spot of "beta testing" =)