16 ms·

'One million babies' created by EU student exchanges

65 points by antr 12y ago

rmc 12y ago
That's a good way to reduce nationalism in Europe (which has sometimes led to wars).
- voidr 12y ago
  There were a lot of wars in the name of freedom, religion, human nature etc., you might want to throw away those too while you're at it, in fact, let's just exterminate humanity, cause all wars were caused by humans. History has also shown us that, even if you have people with the same beliefs, skin color, nationality... etc. they will still find a way to wage war with each other.
  - scarmig 12y ago
    You seem to be implying that there's a constant level of violence that people commit, and eliminating one outlet for it will simply cause the violence to spill over into others. But that's simply not true. The USA, for instance, hasn't had significant levels of collective domestic violence since the ethnic cleansings of the 19th century. Western Europe hasn't either since WW2. Compare that to, say, a similar geographic area of similar size in Africa, and it's a world of difference. Good institutions, civil society, and well-developed property rights reduce violence to a negligible level.
    - Houshalter 12y ago
      I don't know whether or not his model is true, but the US hasn't had a period without some kind of military conflict for more than like 20 years. Before World War I many people believed a major European war was impossible. There had been such a long period of peace, and there were arguments that prosperity and economic inter-dependency discouraged it.
    - voidr 12y ago
      What I was implying is that just because there were wars waged in the name of nationalism, does not mean that getting rid of it would solve anything, there is no proof for that. I might wage a war against your country in the name of nationality or whatnot, but what I really want is your lands, I'm just making the nationality part up, so that my campaign doesn't look bad. Also if you get rid of everything that people waged wars for, not much would be left. People waged wars for freedom, you want to get rid of that? You might also say that beliefs are the problem, let's just get rid of those, however without believes I would probably find it acceptable to just go and attack your people for your lands and riches. As you can see there is more to it, and we are just scratching the surface. Last time I have checked the US, Americans were pretty patriotic, and incidentally fought a war for independence and another one for freedom...
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  I doubt that Europe has much inter-Europe nationalism already. That is, between different nations of Europe. And I'm not sure this program affects nationalism between locals and immigrants. It may do so, since a lot of university students are immigrants. But on the other hand, it is also true if you study locally.
  - jkrems 12y ago
    If you think there's no inter-Europe nationalism I'm not sure where you live. There's a bunch of it. In my environment (German) growing up it was mostly about French, Polish, and a bit about British people. Sure, straight racism mostly happened towards e.g. Turkish immigrants but that's where it stops.
    - cyphunk 12y ago
      racism toward Turkish is where it starts in Germany (even those 2nd or 3rd generation born in Germany). Where it ends is the institutionalized discriminatory education system [1]. But this mostly gets swiped under the rug as even liberals in Germany have trouble accepting the problems. 1.en: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/standing-up-for-equality-germany-schools-english-20131024.pdf http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/st... 1.de: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/gleichberechtigung-an-deutschen-schulen-fordern-20131025.pdf http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/gl...
      - kghose 12y ago
        That pamphlet makes for some scary reading, but is this typical of all of Germany? Perhaps some folks who are living in Germany can comment?
        cyphunk 12y ago
        I live in Berlin, Germany's largest city and most liberal(?) city, which is where the PDF is largely focused. The problem is that unlike a media-hyperbolic society such as the US where meme's travel fast, Germany is a bit more civil and people mostly mind their own business. This brings its own benefits and problems. The problem being that most citizens believe the state of discrimination to be what they have seen (as you will notice from many comments of Germans here and other places). When in-fact in a meme based society eventually stories of real discrimination would become more widely understood. When I talk to people here about the problem of discrimination in the education system few believe it at first. A stalwart all people here hold is that their education system is "great". The stats even for the general population, not accounting for different classes or races, brings that into stark question. Until you relay to them the stories then they start consider it more closely. Then they may start to see that the Gymnasium system meant to promote excellence is actually just a Cast system. Being that promotion to Gymnasium is dependent on a letter from a students teacher. If nothing else tacit discrimination a result of the natural psychology to favor the familiar helps found unfair results. Prior to the Information Era the Gymnasium / Hauptschule system had a function as professional labor was highly valued. This is no longer the case and not getting into a Gymnasium has stronger psychological effect than it would have before. This system, for this era, is discriminatory at its base. Consider The Pygmaliom Effect [1] (aka self-fulfilling prophesy) that proves measured aptitude is dependent on confidence and attention within the education system. Here in Germany you have a system that reaffirm the predefined bias against immigrants and you don't give them attention so they don't perform as well. At least in Berlin, there is evidence that teachers and headmasters of Gymnasiums are just blatantly racist. Consider the arguments some made against Affirmative Action for Gymnasium enrollment in 2011 [2]: Headmasters have objected, saying this type of policy would be "a disservice" to poor children, that they would not be able to keep up academically. The headmasters have also expressed concerns that children of working-class families would not feel welcome at gymnasien. Wolfgang Harnischfeger, headmaster of a well-known Berlin gymnasium, has stated: It can be noticed in children as young as kindergarten students, that children take after their parents. They emulate their language, their way of dressing, their way of spending their free time. Kids from Neukölln [a poor neighbourhood] would not feel good about themselves if they had to attend a type of school that mainly serves students from social classes different from their own. They will not be able to integrate. Every field day, every school party will show that". Effectively this headmaster is saying his school is racist so immigrants wont feel comfortable. The situation is not going to get better. In 2011 Berlin finally reformed their system requiring %30 of seats in Gymnasium be randomly selected. From any angle you look at it, this measure is too little and completely awkward. It doesn't address the ability of teachers to keep qualified students out by not giving them a letter. It doesn't deal with the structure in Gymnasiums that segregate children. It doesn't deal with the problem that very early in your life you are told whether you are worth of University or not. I feel most Europeans want to protect their idea that whatever problems they hear about in the US, that they don't have anything similar. It's convenient and comfortable but absolutely blind. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2.80.93Jacobson_study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2.... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28Germany%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28Germany%29
- gpvos 12y ago
  Tell that to the inter-ethnic families in former Yugoslavia (i.e., Croat-Serb, etc.). During the war, they were simply forced to choose sides. Similar examples can easily be found throughout the world.
  - manicdee 12y ago
    Maybe there simply weren't enough inter-ethnic families, or not enough of the population were exposed to other cultures?
- aikah 12y ago
  Yeah lol, everywhere in Europe nationalist parties are on the rise. What reduces nationalism or racism is people having jobs and enough money to make hands meet so they dont have time to blame the jew,the arab or the negro. Go ask the greeks,italians or the french if Erasmus babies "reduced nationalism".In France a far right party leader has some serious chanced to be elected as president.The far right is growing in Austria,Germany,Sweden,France,Greece,Holland,Uk and many other countries.
Jun8 12y ago
Media is summarizing a 220+ page report of analysis of Erasmus' impact to "1M babies!". Here's a site with a better summary (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-1025_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-1025_en.htm) where you can download the PDF of the report. The executive summary contains some interesting facts.
- pslam 12y ago
  Indeed. The media report is an odd spin, considering the headline of the EU report is: "Erasmus Impact Study confirms EU student exchange scheme boosts employability and job mobility" The part about "1 million babies" is buried several paragraphs in as random statistic, but the author turns the entire story over and runs with that as the lead. I think the submission should be changed to the EU report, as it's far more informative than the blog re-write, and has less of a smelly spin to it.
  - yurylifshits 12y ago
    On the other hand, without "1M babies" headline this link would be less likely to appear on Hacker News )
  - RIMR 12y ago
    Because you expected journalistic integrity from a Tumblr blog title "Yahoo News Digest"?
chiph 12y ago
The steam engine also did much to promote distant relationships and increase genetic diversity. You were no longer limited to dating someone from the local town or county -- in a few hours journey you could meet someone far away.
AndrewOMartin 12y ago
There's a reason the Erasmus program (through which I've met some really great people) is often known by the students as "Orgasmus". All things considered, this is one of those positive headlines we so rarely see these days.
- dominotw 12y ago
  what is so positive about spawning babies?
  - awjr 12y ago
    "Multi-national" babies in Europe where populations are actually declining.
    - dominotw 12y ago
      what is so wrong about declining populations? Isn't it a good thing?
      - guard-of-terra 12y ago
        That's a bad thing. You will then have a large generation of elderly people who ought to be supported by a much smaller generation of working people. And the economy caves in; old people die of lack of care, everybody loses. Stable population might be a good thing, but rapid declining is very problematic. And that's where some countries are headed.
        microtherion 12y ago
        What is your definition of "rapid decline" ? 1% a year? More? Europe could trivially make up any population decline by changing immigration policies. Right now, thousands of people are drowning every year trying to cross the Mediterranean. Most laments about European population decline seem to really be concerned about a decline in white Europeans when you get down to it.
cyphunk 12y ago
showed that 27 percent of people who took part had met their current life partner during their stay abroad. Thirty-three percent of Erasmus students hooked up with people of a different nationality than their own, nearly three times the rate of students who had not travelled. Obviously to meet people of a different nationality you have greater chance when leaving your own country. Next, there is probably something to meeting their partner suitable for starting a family during a certain period of their life that may coincide with Erasmus. So, not sure this statement or this part of the study means anything at all.
mhandley 12y ago
There's a slightly more balanced summary article about this report on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29310930 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29310930
tehwalrus 12y ago
Interesting point about the EU's actual argument - that Erasmus students are more likely to be employed - is that (as I remember from my (entirely chaste) Erasmus summer, there was some competition for the places, and better students (or students who were better at presenting themselves) won. I predict that it is not Erasmus that creates jobs, but students who win Erasmus places also win jobs that were already there.
OedipusRex 12y ago
"Thirty-three percent of Erasmus students hooked up with people of a different nationality than their own, nearly three times the rate of students who had not travelled." Hooked up is the scientific term now. But in reality it's just human nature to want to couple up, combine that with the romantic notion of being in a different country and you have a fairy tale.

65 points by antr 12y ago

rmc 12y ago

That's a good way to reduce nationalism in Europe (which has sometimes led to wars).

voidr 12y ago
There were a lot of wars in the name of freedom, religion, human nature etc., you might want to throw away those too while you're at it, in fact, let's just exterminate humanity, cause all wars were caused by humans. History has also shown us that, even if you have people with the same beliefs, skin color, nationality... etc. they will still find a way to wage war with each other.
- scarmig 12y ago
  You seem to be implying that there's a constant level of violence that people commit, and eliminating one outlet for it will simply cause the violence to spill over into others. But that's simply not true. The USA, for instance, hasn't had significant levels of collective domestic violence since the ethnic cleansings of the 19th century. Western Europe hasn't either since WW2. Compare that to, say, a similar geographic area of similar size in Africa, and it's a world of difference. Good institutions, civil society, and well-developed property rights reduce violence to a negligible level.
  - Houshalter 12y ago
    I don't know whether or not his model is true, but the US hasn't had a period without some kind of military conflict for more than like 20 years. Before World War I many people believed a major European war was impossible. There had been such a long period of peace, and there were arguments that prosperity and economic inter-dependency discouraged it.
  - voidr 12y ago
    What I was implying is that just because there were wars waged in the name of nationalism, does not mean that getting rid of it would solve anything, there is no proof for that. I might wage a war against your country in the name of nationality or whatnot, but what I really want is your lands, I'm just making the nationality part up, so that my campaign doesn't look bad. Also if you get rid of everything that people waged wars for, not much would be left. People waged wars for freedom, you want to get rid of that? You might also say that beliefs are the problem, let's just get rid of those, however without believes I would probably find it acceptable to just go and attack your people for your lands and riches. As you can see there is more to it, and we are just scratching the surface. Last time I have checked the US, Americans were pretty patriotic, and incidentally fought a war for independence and another one for freedom...
guard-of-terra 12y ago
I doubt that Europe has much inter-Europe nationalism already. That is, between different nations of Europe. And I'm not sure this program affects nationalism between locals and immigrants. It may do so, since a lot of university students are immigrants. But on the other hand, it is also true if you study locally.
- jkrems 12y ago
  If you think there's no inter-Europe nationalism I'm not sure where you live. There's a bunch of it. In my environment (German) growing up it was mostly about French, Polish, and a bit about British people. Sure, straight racism mostly happened towards e.g. Turkish immigrants but that's where it stops.
  - cyphunk 12y ago
    racism toward Turkish is where it starts in Germany (even those 2nd or 3rd generation born in Germany). Where it ends is the institutionalized discriminatory education system [1]. But this mostly gets swiped under the rug as even liberals in Germany have trouble accepting the problems. 1.en: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/standing-up-for-equality-germany-schools-english-20131024.pdf http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/st... 1.de: http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/gleichberechtigung-an-deutschen-schulen-fordern-20131025.pdf http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/gl...
    - kghose 12y ago
      That pamphlet makes for some scary reading, but is this typical of all of Germany? Perhaps some folks who are living in Germany can comment?
      - cyphunk 12y ago
        I live in Berlin, Germany's largest city and most liberal(?) city, which is where the PDF is largely focused. The problem is that unlike a media-hyperbolic society such as the US where meme's travel fast, Germany is a bit more civil and people mostly mind their own business. This brings its own benefits and problems. The problem being that most citizens believe the state of discrimination to be what they have seen (as you will notice from many comments of Germans here and other places). When in-fact in a meme based society eventually stories of real discrimination would become more widely understood. When I talk to people here about the problem of discrimination in the education system few believe it at first. A stalwart all people here hold is that their education system is "great". The stats even for the general population, not accounting for different classes or races, brings that into stark question. Until you relay to them the stories then they start consider it more closely. Then they may start to see that the Gymnasium system meant to promote excellence is actually just a Cast system. Being that promotion to Gymnasium is dependent on a letter from a students teacher. If nothing else tacit discrimination a result of the natural psychology to favor the familiar helps found unfair results. Prior to the Information Era the Gymnasium / Hauptschule system had a function as professional labor was highly valued. This is no longer the case and not getting into a Gymnasium has stronger psychological effect than it would have before. This system, for this era, is discriminatory at its base. Consider The Pygmaliom Effect [1] (aka self-fulfilling prophesy) that proves measured aptitude is dependent on confidence and attention within the education system. Here in Germany you have a system that reaffirm the predefined bias against immigrants and you don't give them attention so they don't perform as well. At least in Berlin, there is evidence that teachers and headmasters of Gymnasiums are just blatantly racist. Consider the arguments some made against Affirmative Action for Gymnasium enrollment in 2011 [2]: Headmasters have objected, saying this type of policy would be "a disservice" to poor children, that they would not be able to keep up academically. The headmasters have also expressed concerns that children of working-class families would not feel welcome at gymnasien. Wolfgang Harnischfeger, headmaster of a well-known Berlin gymnasium, has stated: It can be noticed in children as young as kindergarten students, that children take after their parents. They emulate their language, their way of dressing, their way of spending their free time. Kids from Neukölln [a poor neighbourhood] would not feel good about themselves if they had to attend a type of school that mainly serves students from social classes different from their own. They will not be able to integrate. Every field day, every school party will show that". Effectively this headmaster is saying his school is racist so immigrants wont feel comfortable. The situation is not going to get better. In 2011 Berlin finally reformed their system requiring %30 of seats in Gymnasium be randomly selected. From any angle you look at it, this measure is too little and completely awkward. It doesn't address the ability of teachers to keep qualified students out by not giving them a letter. It doesn't deal with the structure in Gymnasiums that segregate children. It doesn't deal with the problem that very early in your life you are told whether you are worth of University or not. I feel most Europeans want to protect their idea that whatever problems they hear about in the US, that they don't have anything similar. It's convenient and comfortable but absolutely blind. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2.80.93Jacobson_study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect#Rosenthal.E2.... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28Germany%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28Germany%29
gpvos 12y ago
Tell that to the inter-ethnic families in former Yugoslavia (i.e., Croat-Serb, etc.). During the war, they were simply forced to choose sides. Similar examples can easily be found throughout the world.
- manicdee 12y ago
  Maybe there simply weren't enough inter-ethnic families, or not enough of the population were exposed to other cultures?
aikah 12y ago
Yeah lol, everywhere in Europe nationalist parties are on the rise. What reduces nationalism or racism is people having jobs and enough money to make hands meet so they dont have time to blame the jew,the arab or the negro. Go ask the greeks,italians or the french if Erasmus babies "reduced nationalism".In France a far right party leader has some serious chanced to be elected as president.The far right is growing in Austria,Germany,Sweden,France,Greece,Holland,Uk and many other countries.

Jun8 12y ago

Media is summarizing a 220+ page report of analysis of Erasmus' impact to "1M babies!". Here's a site with a better summary (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-1025_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-1025_en.htm) where you can download the PDF of the report. The executive summary contains some interesting facts.

pslam 12y ago
Indeed. The media report is an odd spin, considering the headline of the EU report is: "Erasmus Impact Study confirms EU student exchange scheme boosts employability and job mobility" The part about "1 million babies" is buried several paragraphs in as random statistic, but the author turns the entire story over and runs with that as the lead. I think the submission should be changed to the EU report, as it's far more informative than the blog re-write, and has less of a smelly spin to it.
- yurylifshits 12y ago
  On the other hand, without "1M babies" headline this link would be less likely to appear on Hacker News )
- RIMR 12y ago
  Because you expected journalistic integrity from a Tumblr blog title "Yahoo News Digest"?

chiph 12y ago

The steam engine also did much to promote distant relationships and increase genetic diversity. You were no longer limited to dating someone from the local town or county -- in a few hours journey you could meet someone far away.

AndrewOMartin 12y ago

There's a reason the Erasmus program (through which I've met some really great people) is often known by the students as "Orgasmus". All things considered, this is one of those positive headlines we so rarely see these days.

dominotw 12y ago
what is so positive about spawning babies?
- awjr 12y ago
  "Multi-national" babies in Europe where populations are actually declining.
  - dominotw 12y ago
    what is so wrong about declining populations? Isn't it a good thing?
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      That's a bad thing. You will then have a large generation of elderly people who ought to be supported by a much smaller generation of working people. And the economy caves in; old people die of lack of care, everybody loses. Stable population might be a good thing, but rapid declining is very problematic. And that's where some countries are headed.
      - microtherion 12y ago
        What is your definition of "rapid decline" ? 1% a year? More? Europe could trivially make up any population decline by changing immigration policies. Right now, thousands of people are drowning every year trying to cross the Mediterranean. Most laments about European population decline seem to really be concerned about a decline in white Europeans when you get down to it.

cyphunk 12y ago

showed that 27 percent of people who took part had met their current life partner during their stay abroad. Thirty-three percent of Erasmus students hooked up with people of a different nationality than their own, nearly three times the rate of students who had not travelled. Obviously to meet people of a different nationality you have greater chance when leaving your own country. Next, there is probably something to meeting their partner suitable for starting a family during a certain period of their life that may coincide with Erasmus. So, not sure this statement or this part of the study means anything at all.

mhandley 12y ago

There's a slightly more balanced summary article about this report on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29310930 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29310930

tehwalrus 12y ago

Interesting point about the EU's actual argument - that Erasmus students are more likely to be employed - is that (as I remember from my (entirely chaste) Erasmus summer, there was some competition for the places, and better students (or students who were better at presenting themselves) won. I predict that it is not Erasmus that creates jobs, but students who win Erasmus places also win jobs that were already there.

OedipusRex 12y ago

"Thirty-three percent of Erasmus students hooked up with people of a different nationality than their own, nearly three times the rate of students who had not travelled." Hooked up is the scientific term now. But in reality it's just human nature to want to couple up, combine that with the romantic notion of being in a different country and you have a fairy tale.