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Some times simpler is better ... After it reminds me that life doesn't have the same value in russia. And as a french thanks they have this kind of abnegation

Some times simpler is better ... After it reminds me that life doesn't have the same value in russia. And as a french thanks they have this kind of abnegation : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidator_%28Chernobyl%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidator_%28Chernobyl%29

pav7en 12y ago
Thanks for the link. Was illuminating, humanizes the people of USSR and their government. A reminder that not all stories are stereotypical.
- CmonDev 12y ago
  "humanizes the people of USSR" - so you are saying they weren't actual humans?
- wavefunction 12y ago
  There is no USSR anymore. These are Russian smoke-jumpers.
huhtenberg 12y ago
> life doesn't have the same value in russia I was going to comment how this wasn't an accurate statement, but in reflection it actually is. It's not that the powers that be are negligent with dispensing their citizens' lives, it's that people themselves are more willing to risk their lives, both heroically altruistically and sometimes without due need at all. Buckling up is indeed for wussies, but then you do in fact have the acts of extreme heroism like in Chernobyl. It's an interesting cultural trait.
- pilsetnieks 12y ago
  Chernobyl wasn't heroism, it was slave labor. The people that were made to work there were gathered all over Soviet Union with no choice in the matter and no knowledge about where they were being taken, what happened, and what dangers they faced.
  - huhtenberg 12y ago
    If you say so.
    - mlvljr 12y ago
      We Russians are all about slavery, as everyone knows, yeah! Not even a bit of heroism :)
      - BugBrother 12y ago
        The first response to Chernobyl was heroic. Fire fighters later died from acute radiation poisoning. But would it really surprise you if the Soviet leaders did as "pilsetnieks" wrote and forced people to get high radiation doses without telling them? Russia have outstanding traditions in e.g. math, literature, art and engineering. That is not diminished by Russian leaders' traditions of enslaving Russians (and others).
        bussiere 12y ago
        Yeah bit of both as usuals but the first as engineers know what they risked. As any dramaticals events you had stupidy , petty arrangements, manipulations and heroism. Still glad for the heroism of the first people on this event.
        pilsetnieks 12y ago
        The first people there certainly knew what they were facing, and they knew the risks. The rest - not so much. People were gathered from the streets, from their homes and their workplaces. None were told what they were about to face, none were allowed to talk to anyone back home, and none were allowed to leave when they got there. All in all, there was a handful of people who really knew the risks and who truly, heroically sacrificed themselves. Then there were some volunteers, and then there were masses of involuntary laborers who were told that they should take a few charcoal tablets a day and they'll be fine. About 600 000 people were involved in the liquidation effort. Surely you cannot believe that they were all Soviet heroes, or volunteers for a cause no one actually was told about at the time. You don't need to hope for volunteers in a totalitarian regime if you can just gather any able-bodied man you can find.
- Shivetya 12y ago
  yet you will find that same outlook in many countries, middle America has many who share the same beliefs. I would say that that outlook is more common with rural areas than urban.
tim333 12y ago
I daresay the US does smokejumping too http://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/logistics/crews/smokejumpers/ http://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/logistics/crews/smokejumpers/
DominikR 12y ago
Russians or more generally Slavs do not value human life less than western societies do. Their societies and cultures are just more collectivistic and focused on the survival of the state and its people than western societies. (where individualism is stronger) And this didn't happen by chance. If you take a look at the history of the Slavs, that live and lived on the territory of current Russia, you'll find that it is mostly about having to defend against invasion after invasion for most of the last 1000 years. If it wasn't the europeans who were invading (France, Germany, Poland-Lithuania, Sweden, Denmark - which all were very powerful at some point in history), then it were the Turks or Persians from the south, or the Mongols from the east that invaded. This certainly had an effect on the society and their psychology and that's why you will see there more people willing to risk or sacrifice their lives for the survival of their state and their people. That's the explanation why most liquidators in Chernobyl were volunteers, why the Soviet Union could even fight a total war against Nazi Germany where they lost 30-40 million people (could you imagine France fighting any war in which they lose 10 million citizens? Even under the harshest dictatorship that uses force?) and why a collectivistic ideology like Communism could rise in Russia. It even explains why opposition has a very hard time in modern Russia (it is often viewed as betrayal against their state and their people), and why Russia is so large in the first place. (they feel the need to have giant buffer zones in case of future invasions and to have a backup plan behind the Ural mountains if the Moscow region should ever fall)
bussiere 12y ago
You also have the divers that goes on suicidal mission in this event : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_disaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_dis... http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Soviet-Press-Reports-Heroic-Acts-at-Chernobyl-Reactor-With-AM-Chernobyl-Nuclear-Bjt/id-bfb4a0cf2479ee940116c74141e8a332 http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Soviet-Press-Reports-Heroi... and for the value of life. Lot of events and russian friends make me think like this. as always it's my experience and point of view.

pav7en 12y ago

Thanks for the link. Was illuminating, humanizes the people of USSR and their government. A reminder that not all stories are stereotypical.

CmonDev 12y ago
"humanizes the people of USSR" - so you are saying they weren't actual humans?
wavefunction 12y ago
There is no USSR anymore. These are Russian smoke-jumpers.

huhtenberg 12y ago

> life doesn't have the same value in russia I was going to comment how this wasn't an accurate statement, but in reflection it actually is. It's not that the powers that be are negligent with dispensing their citizens' lives, it's that people themselves are more willing to risk their lives, both heroically altruistically and sometimes without due need at all. Buckling up is indeed for wussies, but then you do in fact have the acts of extreme heroism like in Chernobyl. It's an interesting cultural trait.

pilsetnieks 12y ago
Chernobyl wasn't heroism, it was slave labor. The people that were made to work there were gathered all over Soviet Union with no choice in the matter and no knowledge about where they were being taken, what happened, and what dangers they faced.
- huhtenberg 12y ago
  If you say so.
  - mlvljr 12y ago
    We Russians are all about slavery, as everyone knows, yeah! Not even a bit of heroism :)
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      The first response to Chernobyl was heroic. Fire fighters later died from acute radiation poisoning. But would it really surprise you if the Soviet leaders did as "pilsetnieks" wrote and forced people to get high radiation doses without telling them? Russia have outstanding traditions in e.g. math, literature, art and engineering. That is not diminished by Russian leaders' traditions of enslaving Russians (and others).
      - bussiere 12y ago
        Yeah bit of both as usuals but the first as engineers know what they risked. As any dramaticals events you had stupidy , petty arrangements, manipulations and heroism. Still glad for the heroism of the first people on this event.
        pilsetnieks 12y ago
        The first people there certainly knew what they were facing, and they knew the risks. The rest - not so much. People were gathered from the streets, from their homes and their workplaces. None were told what they were about to face, none were allowed to talk to anyone back home, and none were allowed to leave when they got there. All in all, there was a handful of people who really knew the risks and who truly, heroically sacrificed themselves. Then there were some volunteers, and then there were masses of involuntary laborers who were told that they should take a few charcoal tablets a day and they'll be fine. About 600 000 people were involved in the liquidation effort. Surely you cannot believe that they were all Soviet heroes, or volunteers for a cause no one actually was told about at the time. You don't need to hope for volunteers in a totalitarian regime if you can just gather any able-bodied man you can find.
Shivetya 12y ago
yet you will find that same outlook in many countries, middle America has many who share the same beliefs. I would say that that outlook is more common with rural areas than urban.

tim333 12y ago

I daresay the US does smokejumping too http://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/logistics/crews/smokejumpers/ http://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/logistics/crews/smokejumpers/

DominikR 12y ago

Russians or more generally Slavs do not value human life less than western societies do. Their societies and cultures are just more collectivistic and focused on the survival of the state and its people than western societies. (where individualism is stronger) And this didn't happen by chance. If you take a look at the history of the Slavs, that live and lived on the territory of current Russia, you'll find that it is mostly about having to defend against invasion after invasion for most of the last 1000 years. If it wasn't the europeans who were invading (France, Germany, Poland-Lithuania, Sweden, Denmark - which all were very powerful at some point in history), then it were the Turks or Persians from the south, or the Mongols from the east that invaded. This certainly had an effect on the society and their psychology and that's why you will see there more people willing to risk or sacrifice their lives for the survival of their state and their people. That's the explanation why most liquidators in Chernobyl were volunteers, why the Soviet Union could even fight a total war against Nazi Germany where they lost 30-40 million people (could you imagine France fighting any war in which they lose 10 million citizens? Even under the harshest dictatorship that uses force?) and why a collectivistic ideology like Communism could rise in Russia. It even explains why opposition has a very hard time in modern Russia (it is often viewed as betrayal against their state and their people), and why Russia is so large in the first place. (they feel the need to have giant buffer zones in case of future invasions and to have a backup plan behind the Ural mountains if the Moscow region should ever fall)

bussiere 12y ago

You also have the divers that goes on suicidal mission in this event : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_disaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_dis... http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Soviet-Press-Reports-Heroic-Acts-at-Chernobyl-Reactor-With-AM-Chernobyl-Nuclear-Bjt/id-bfb4a0cf2479ee940116c74141e8a332 http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/Soviet-Press-Reports-Heroi... and for the value of life. Lot of events and russian friends make me think like this. as always it's my experience and point of view.