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the vast majority of potential customers (leads) are a waste of time, for a million different reasons. they want you to invest in the process because that's th

the vast majority of potential customers (leads) are a waste of time, for a million different reasons. they want you to invest in the process because that's the only way to signal you are serious. try doing all of the above, for 12-18 months, and then learning that the customer never intended to go with your solution, but was rather just leading you on to get a price foil for a competitor that he already decided he was going with. you'll be a different kind of angry. a real kind of angry - because there are real consequences and costs, in dollars, and time, to that kind of fuckup. this is very different from a real evaluation, and the only way to avoid that kind of scenario is to get investment from the buyer. a sales organization that runs into that kind of situation with any kind of regularity is dead in the water because they're spending all their time on people who don't want to give them any money. having said that, what you want in a sales process does exist, it's just that it's usually the smaller, younger, hungrier, less "proven" companies that are willing to withstand the abuse to provide it. it'll all sound great, until it's time to sign the contract, then all of a sudden any of a million reasons to not move forward are produced from thin air, and instead, a larger more established competitor that practices universally disliked sales techniques gets the $ and the validation. in short, be the change in the world you want to see. next time, buy from a smaller company that puts your career at risk. it's hard to do when you have large budgets because the purchasing process is basically just a giant a cover-your-ass operation.

shostack 12y ago
I appreciate your point. But all of those consequences you listed in your example stemmed from the customer trying to get a price out of you for pricing leverage with a competitor. If the company being used in this regard simply had transparent pricing, they wouldn't have to waste those sales resources in the first place. I also think in this day and age of anonymous online review sites, Quora, Reddit, etc. that a lot of this pricing information gets out there anyway, NDA's be damned. So it almost seems like a futile battle. I agree though with your statement on types of companies, and ultimately decided not to continue considering the large established enterprise players and focus more on the smaller, younger companies. There was still pricing negotiation and other sales process challenges, but overall the process was much less painful (still not anywhere approaching enjoyable though).
- beachstartup 12y ago
  getting to a price is about 1% of the sales process, but it's the only thing the customer thinks he wants, so it's used as a gatekeeper. also, the companies who don't publish pricing do not want people who are interested in just the price. they're usually selling something that has a lot of intangibles like a custom crafted solutions or quality of service. by reducing their entire sales pitch down to a single number, they're devaluing themselves before they even get a chance to pitch their solution. by not even being willing to communicate with a sales person the details of what you want, you immediately disqualify yourself. in my opinion it should take about 30 minutes to an hour of your time to be able to get a price out of an enterprise product or service (this includes requirements gathering, specifications, etc on the part of the sales person). anything less, and you're not dealing with a serious buyer. usually this is just one phone call and a follow-up email with specs. in our business that's enough to generate a proposal with a $ amount on it.
  - shostack 12y ago
    I think the % of the process that is spent on pricing is highly dependent on the situation and players. In this particular case, I've had some where it was very quick and clear cut, and some where it was very clear they were trying to jerk me around on it to see how much they could get out of me and it took waaay too much time to get to the bottom of that. I likewise will also agree that there are valid reasons for not publishing the price as a way of better qualifying leads before first sales contact. That said, that still doesn't justify why pricing can't be transparent and clear cut once the lead is qualified and they are in the sales process. Simply knowing that the initial pricing presented is not final and needs to be negotiated is a giant PITA and still a waste of time. If you claim pricing is such a small piece of it, why then do companies bother with the negotiation piece if the actual amounts might be trivial compared to whether or not they close the deal? Does the psychological benefit of conceding to a lower price (from an already padded initial price) really make that big a difference in close rates? I agree pricing discussions should not take longer than 30 minutes, but unfortunately, many sales people I've dealt with prefer to play car salesman style games. Do you have any suggestions on how to approach such conversations to get the best/fair price with a minimum of back-and-forth headaches that can cut through some of what I've described? I've tried a few different approaches with varying success and am always open to others to test out.

shostack 12y ago

I appreciate your point. But all of those consequences you listed in your example stemmed from the customer trying to get a price out of you for pricing leverage with a competitor. If the company being used in this regard simply had transparent pricing, they wouldn't have to waste those sales resources in the first place. I also think in this day and age of anonymous online review sites, Quora, Reddit, etc. that a lot of this pricing information gets out there anyway, NDA's be damned. So it almost seems like a futile battle. I agree though with your statement on types of companies, and ultimately decided not to continue considering the large established enterprise players and focus more on the smaller, younger companies. There was still pricing negotiation and other sales process challenges, but overall the process was much less painful (still not anywhere approaching enjoyable though).

beachstartup 12y ago
getting to a price is about 1% of the sales process, but it's the only thing the customer thinks he wants, so it's used as a gatekeeper. also, the companies who don't publish pricing do not want people who are interested in just the price. they're usually selling something that has a lot of intangibles like a custom crafted solutions or quality of service. by reducing their entire sales pitch down to a single number, they're devaluing themselves before they even get a chance to pitch their solution. by not even being willing to communicate with a sales person the details of what you want, you immediately disqualify yourself. in my opinion it should take about 30 minutes to an hour of your time to be able to get a price out of an enterprise product or service (this includes requirements gathering, specifications, etc on the part of the sales person). anything less, and you're not dealing with a serious buyer. usually this is just one phone call and a follow-up email with specs. in our business that's enough to generate a proposal with a $ amount on it.
- shostack 12y ago
  I think the % of the process that is spent on pricing is highly dependent on the situation and players. In this particular case, I've had some where it was very quick and clear cut, and some where it was very clear they were trying to jerk me around on it to see how much they could get out of me and it took waaay too much time to get to the bottom of that. I likewise will also agree that there are valid reasons for not publishing the price as a way of better qualifying leads before first sales contact. That said, that still doesn't justify why pricing can't be transparent and clear cut once the lead is qualified and they are in the sales process. Simply knowing that the initial pricing presented is not final and needs to be negotiated is a giant PITA and still a waste of time. If you claim pricing is such a small piece of it, why then do companies bother with the negotiation piece if the actual amounts might be trivial compared to whether or not they close the deal? Does the psychological benefit of conceding to a lower price (from an already padded initial price) really make that big a difference in close rates? I agree pricing discussions should not take longer than 30 minutes, but unfortunately, many sales people I've dealt with prefer to play car salesman style games. Do you have any suggestions on how to approach such conversations to get the best/fair price with a minimum of back-and-forth headaches that can cut through some of what I've described? I've tried a few different approaches with varying success and am always open to others to test out.