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Regarding 5 & 6, EFF seem to think there is a prosecution being sought against the students. "The state has already made clear it believes Rubin and Tidbit are

Regarding 5 & 6, EFF seem to think there is a prosecution being sought against the students. "The state has already made clear it believes Rubin and Tidbit are in violation of New Jersey's Consumer Fraud Act. The state recently used consumer protection laws to secure a $1 million settlement from a gambling website that turned its users' computers into a botnet to mine for Bitcoins without the users' knowledge. It appears the state suspects Tidbit of something similar here, despite the fact Tidbit's code was only a proof of concept that could not mine for Bitcoins, and despite the fact Tidbit was clearly not planning to develop code that mined without a user's knowledge and consent." "Some of the interrogatories also suggest that New Jersey believes Rubin and Tidbit are in violation of criminal hacking laws. One interrogatory asks Rubin to provide a list of all instances where Tidbit and websites using the code "accessed consumer computers without express written authorization or accessed consumer computers beyond what was authorized." That language comes from New Jersey's computer fraud act, which, in turn, is modeled after the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Since the subpoena is clearly demanding Rubin incriminate himself by opening himself to both civil and criminal liability, the privilege against self incrimination applies and he should be given immunity if ordered to comply with the subpoena." https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/02/eff-challenges-new-jersey-subpoena-issued-mit-student-bitcoin-developers https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/02/eff-challenges-new-jer...

will_brown 12y ago
If there is a finding of wrong doing I am sure there will be prosecution, only not against the students, but against the operators of websites using the students code without the knowledge of end users. Again it would be an exercise is futility for the AG to attempt to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that was the intent of the students (unless the students operated third party websites running the Tidbit code without knowledge of the end user). EFF simply wants immunity. Everything else is posture: >The state has already made clear it believes Rubin and Tidbit are in violation of New Jersey's Consumer Fraud Act. If that's what the state believed criminal charges would be filed, not a subpoena issued. >One interrogatory asks Rubin to provide a list of all instances where Tidbit and websites using the code "accessed consumer computers without express written authorization or accessed consumer computers beyond what was authorized." Note how the question is not just focused on Tidbit but also 3rd party websites.
- nemanja 12y ago
  So, in your view, is NJ AG incompetent or evil here? From my vantage point AG is either: 1. Looking to build a case against the students, which in all likelihood appears to a loosing bet (if you apply any common sense to the fact pattern). However, he can always trump up bogus charges, like Ortiz did against Schwartz, and look to settle for something lesser to check off a win on his/her scorecard. 2. Pressuring students to collect information necessary to build a case against a third party without tipping off such third party. If this is the case, it is pure evil and constitutes a gross overreach. There are a handful of other ways to accomplish the same goal without exerting an undue toll on these guys. Let's remember we are talking about a couple of talented kids from MIT, who could be building the next $1bn business instead of being bogged down by some bogus nonsense. Also, can imagine what sort of financial/emotional/time sink this represents. Then again, we are talking about the state where Governor makes Sopranos script look like a child play...
  - watwut 12y ago
    "Let's remember we are talking about a couple of talented kids from MIT, who could be building the next $1bn business instead of being bogged down by some bogus nonsense. Also, can imagine what sort of financial/emotional/time sink this represents." While I agree with your remaining points, them being talented kids from MIT should be irrelevant and so should be their business potential. These are exactly kind of things criminal law and process should be blind to.
    - nemanja 12y ago
      Yep, law should apply equally to all (in theory). In practice, prosecutors have great deal of discretion on which cases they decide to pursue with limited resources at their disposal. All I am saying is that there are certainly hardened criminals and corrupt politicians in NJ who deserve those fishing expedition resources far more than a talented MIT hacker (who as it appears didn't commit a crime). I am no law enforcement expert, but Rubin's resume doesn't read like a hardened criminal to me - http://rubin.io/static/portfolio/media/resume.pdf http://rubin.io/static/portfolio/media/resume.pdf Really hoping they get in front of a sensible judge who puts a kibosh on this whole nonsense.

will_brown 12y ago

If there is a finding of wrong doing I am sure there will be prosecution, only not against the students, but against the operators of websites using the students code without the knowledge of end users. Again it would be an exercise is futility for the AG to attempt to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that was the intent of the students (unless the students operated third party websites running the Tidbit code without knowledge of the end user). EFF simply wants immunity. Everything else is posture: >The state has already made clear it believes Rubin and Tidbit are in violation of New Jersey's Consumer Fraud Act. If that's what the state believed criminal charges would be filed, not a subpoena issued. >One interrogatory asks Rubin to provide a list of all instances where Tidbit and websites using the code "accessed consumer computers without express written authorization or accessed consumer computers beyond what was authorized." Note how the question is not just focused on Tidbit but also 3rd party websites.

nemanja 12y ago
So, in your view, is NJ AG incompetent or evil here? From my vantage point AG is either: 1. Looking to build a case against the students, which in all likelihood appears to a loosing bet (if you apply any common sense to the fact pattern). However, he can always trump up bogus charges, like Ortiz did against Schwartz, and look to settle for something lesser to check off a win on his/her scorecard. 2. Pressuring students to collect information necessary to build a case against a third party without tipping off such third party. If this is the case, it is pure evil and constitutes a gross overreach. There are a handful of other ways to accomplish the same goal without exerting an undue toll on these guys. Let's remember we are talking about a couple of talented kids from MIT, who could be building the next $1bn business instead of being bogged down by some bogus nonsense. Also, can imagine what sort of financial/emotional/time sink this represents. Then again, we are talking about the state where Governor makes Sopranos script look like a child play...
- watwut 12y ago
  "Let's remember we are talking about a couple of talented kids from MIT, who could be building the next $1bn business instead of being bogged down by some bogus nonsense. Also, can imagine what sort of financial/emotional/time sink this represents." While I agree with your remaining points, them being talented kids from MIT should be irrelevant and so should be their business potential. These are exactly kind of things criminal law and process should be blind to.
  - nemanja 12y ago
    Yep, law should apply equally to all (in theory). In practice, prosecutors have great deal of discretion on which cases they decide to pursue with limited resources at their disposal. All I am saying is that there are certainly hardened criminals and corrupt politicians in NJ who deserve those fishing expedition resources far more than a talented MIT hacker (who as it appears didn't commit a crime). I am no law enforcement expert, but Rubin's resume doesn't read like a hardened criminal to me - http://rubin.io/static/portfolio/media/resume.pdf http://rubin.io/static/portfolio/media/resume.pdf Really hoping they get in front of a sensible judge who puts a kibosh on this whole nonsense.