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Can a linguist explain? I don't know much about sign languages. Is there a corresponding concept of "phonemes" into which words in other sign languages can be d

by jordigh 12y ago

Can a linguist explain? I don't know much about sign languages. Is there a corresponding concept of "phonemes" into which words in other sign languages can be decomposed into? And is ABSL already "mature" i.e. native language of some babies, or is it still in some sort of "pidgin" stage? Maybe it will become more "normalised" as time goes by. By the way, I wonder why sign languages are the ones whose birth we can easily witness. Nicaraguan Sign Language is the textbook example of this.

SilasX 12y ago
Second this request. I get the feeling that this result is just an artifact of not treating hand signs as "subdividable into components" the same way words are. That is, even if ABSL is unquie in having lots of holistic gestures that don't combine, those gestures themselves are still expressible as the combination of meaningless atomic components, eg "flat hand + lower half circle motion + doing it quickly". And just like with the sounds of other languages, those meaningless components will appear in other gestures that mean different things.
idlewords 12y ago
Sign languages can spring up when you put a bunch of deaf kids together without any adults who know how to sign. This happens much more often than the analogous situation for spoken language.
- ars 12y ago
  > This happens much more often than the analogous situation for spoken language. Citation needed. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptophasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptophasia The analogous situation for spoke language simply doesn't happen as often. But there is nothing special about sign language here, the creation of language is the same either way.
  - idlewords 12y ago
    "The analogous situation for spoke language simply doesn't happen as often." That's exactly the point I made in the comment you are replying to. It's like we're speaking different languages.
    - ars 12y ago
      Sounds that way doesn't it? But the word order changes the meaning. I'm saying kids alone doesn't happen as often. You were saying (or it seemed like you were saying) that kids creating a new spoken language doesn't happen as often.
ineedtosleep 12y ago
I wouldn't call myself a linguist, but I've spent 3 or so years studying it at a university -- here's my take (after a relatively quick skim of the article and video): The language hasn't evolved enough to have smaller divisible units. The use of the language, IMO, seems to be simplistic enough so that complex grammatical particles are needed. They probably have particles for simple particles like "that", "and", "the" or "this". A decent test would be to ask the ABSL speakers to create sentences in complex time-space situations. > Is there a corresponding concept of "phonemes" into which words in other sign languages can be decomposed into? From my limited experience, I don't think signs can be divisible like phonemes. There are definitely morphemes[1], however. > And is ABSL already "mature" i.e. native language of some babies, or is it still in some sort of "pidgin" stage? Maybe it will become more "normalised" as time goes by. It depends on what "mature" means -- and I also wouldn't consider it a pidgin. It's likely it's own language. If by "mature" one means that it's ready for both simplified transactions (i.e. S1: I want that apple. S2: Apple for a carrot? S1: OK) and relatively complex interactions (see the first interaction in the video of the OP), the language already accomplishes that. I would say that it's already mature. The language will surely evolve as time goes on, especially once the "speakers" of the language get more connected. One big reason for ABSL's lack of "standardization" is probably due to the lack of interaction with different types of speakers -- I assume this is the case with rural areas such as theirs. Only then would speakers really analyze their speaking patterns and mold it into a way where they all understand each other. I'm just typing this quickly at work, so any corrections are welcome. [1] http://www.handspeak.com/study/library/?byte=m&ID=119 http://www.handspeak.com/study/library/?byte=m&ID=119
- chch 12y ago
  I have no specialty in signed language linguistics, but I would say that perhaps Location/Handshape/Movement could be considered similar to phonemes, or at least similar to subconcepts like 'place of articulation'. Similar to spoken languages, the individual sounds/shapes may or may not mean something on their own, but they tend to be regular enough to be able to be described in a writing system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokoe_notation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokoe_notation (note that Stokoe notation is described as a 'phonemic script' here).
kylebgorman 12y ago
Sign languages emerge when deaf kids (who aren't receiving other signed input) are together. To get the equivalent with spoken language, you'd have to put a bunch of (hearing) kids together on a desert island with no adult supervision. Deeply unethical, but that hasn't prevented people from proposing it.
- pavel_lishin 12y ago
  I'd wager it's happened before in cities with a high initial immigrant population. Several families who don't speak a common language move into an area, and while the kids speak their native tongues at home, they might develop a private neighborhood pidgin to understand each other.
- nirvdrum 12y ago
  There have been variations of this run in the past, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiment... The James IV of Scotland experiment was the one I was familiar with, but it appears others have attempted it as well.
pessimizer 12y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language_phonology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language_phonolo...

by jordigh 12y ago

SilasX 12y ago

Second this request. I get the feeling that this result is just an artifact of not treating hand signs as "subdividable into components" the same way words are. That is, even if ABSL is unquie in having lots of holistic gestures that don't combine, those gestures themselves are still expressible as the combination of meaningless atomic components, eg "flat hand + lower half circle motion + doing it quickly". And just like with the sounds of other languages, those meaningless components will appear in other gestures that mean different things.

idlewords 12y ago

Sign languages can spring up when you put a bunch of deaf kids together without any adults who know how to sign. This happens much more often than the analogous situation for spoken language.

ars 12y ago
> This happens much more often than the analogous situation for spoken language. Citation needed. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptophasia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptophasia The analogous situation for spoke language simply doesn't happen as often. But there is nothing special about sign language here, the creation of language is the same either way.
- idlewords 12y ago
  "The analogous situation for spoke language simply doesn't happen as often." That's exactly the point I made in the comment you are replying to. It's like we're speaking different languages.
  - ars 12y ago
    Sounds that way doesn't it? But the word order changes the meaning. I'm saying kids alone doesn't happen as often. You were saying (or it seemed like you were saying) that kids creating a new spoken language doesn't happen as often.

ineedtosleep 12y ago

I wouldn't call myself a linguist, but I've spent 3 or so years studying it at a university -- here's my take (after a relatively quick skim of the article and video): The language hasn't evolved enough to have smaller divisible units. The use of the language, IMO, seems to be simplistic enough so that complex grammatical particles are needed. They probably have particles for simple particles like "that", "and", "the" or "this". A decent test would be to ask the ABSL speakers to create sentences in complex time-space situations. > Is there a corresponding concept of "phonemes" into which words in other sign languages can be decomposed into? From my limited experience, I don't think signs can be divisible like phonemes. There are definitely morphemes[1], however. > And is ABSL already "mature" i.e. native language of some babies, or is it still in some sort of "pidgin" stage? Maybe it will become more "normalised" as time goes by. It depends on what "mature" means -- and I also wouldn't consider it a pidgin. It's likely it's own language. If by "mature" one means that it's ready for both simplified transactions (i.e. S1: I want that apple. S2: Apple for a carrot? S1: OK) and relatively complex interactions (see the first interaction in the video of the OP), the language already accomplishes that. I would say that it's already mature. The language will surely evolve as time goes on, especially once the "speakers" of the language get more connected. One big reason for ABSL's lack of "standardization" is probably due to the lack of interaction with different types of speakers -- I assume this is the case with rural areas such as theirs. Only then would speakers really analyze their speaking patterns and mold it into a way where they all understand each other. I'm just typing this quickly at work, so any corrections are welcome. [1] http://www.handspeak.com/study/library/?byte=m&ID=119 http://www.handspeak.com/study/library/?byte=m&ID=119

chch 12y ago
I have no specialty in signed language linguistics, but I would say that perhaps Location/Handshape/Movement could be considered similar to phonemes, or at least similar to subconcepts like 'place of articulation'. Similar to spoken languages, the individual sounds/shapes may or may not mean something on their own, but they tend to be regular enough to be able to be described in a writing system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokoe_notation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokoe_notation (note that Stokoe notation is described as a 'phonemic script' here).

kylebgorman 12y ago

Sign languages emerge when deaf kids (who aren't receiving other signed input) are together. To get the equivalent with spoken language, you'd have to put a bunch of (hearing) kids together on a desert island with no adult supervision. Deeply unethical, but that hasn't prevented people from proposing it.

pavel_lishin 12y ago
I'd wager it's happened before in cities with a high initial immigrant population. Several families who don't speak a common language move into an area, and while the kids speak their native tongues at home, they might develop a private neighborhood pidgin to understand each other.
nirvdrum 12y ago
There have been variations of this run in the past, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiment... The James IV of Scotland experiment was the one I was familiar with, but it appears others have attempted it as well.

pessimizer 12y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language_phonology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language_phonolo...