4 ms·

Maybe people are afraid. The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. People are less inclined to push back because they don't want to p

by debt 12y ago

Maybe people are afraid. The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. People are less inclined to push back because they don't want to potentially jeopardize their job. I agree that ideally people should always be pushing back, but if it's potentially between a raise or you're fired(at least in the minds of people requesting the raise), then people will be more cautious. Also, young(cheap) workers are in large supply so people may actually be fired for asking for a raise; they can just fire the guy and hire a new younger worker(probably working for less too). Many of these tech companies out here in the Bay probably pull hundreds of millions of dollars in "free" labor using an army of temporary interns(because it's cheap).

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. The limit is shown in the recent fast food strikes: when the existing jobs are so damn bad that people can't get by from working, people start fighting back again.
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  > existing jobs "There are three million good jobs that no one seems to want." http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ http://profoundlydisconnected.com/
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    One thing I find extremely conspicuous about that brand and web-page is that no information seems to appear on the site stating the mean or median wages, working hours, and/or benefits packages available in the skilled-trade jobs Rowe and Profoundly Disconnected are marketing. If employers can't be bothered to pay well, why work for them? https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/
    - Domenic_S 12y ago
      My anecdata from hiring a lot of trades (sticker shock!), and having lots of friends and family in trades, is that skilled trades pay extremely well, but you have to go up the ladder. apprentice (crap pay) --> journeyman (good pay) --> master (great pay) --> own your own shop (fantastic pay). The only people I personally know with paid-off houses in California are tradespeople and startup lottery winners.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    Sounds just exactly like the "can't find enough skilled engineers" whining in the tech sector. The other half of that thought, "at the price I'm willing to pay" is almost never mentioned. This country has a deeply embedded, cultural and in my opinion entirely unhealthy bent toward deference to the wealthy and connected that borders on obsquious.
    - Domenic_S 12y ago
      I doubt it. Like I said in another comment, the only people I personally know with paid-off houses in California are tradespeople and startup lottery winners. > The other half of that thought, "at the price I'm willing to pay" is almost never mentioned. Think on that for a second. Let's say CompanyX is willing to pay huge gobs of money for engineers. Now CompanyX employs all the good engineers and everyone else whines that they can't find any. So CompanyY comes along and offers a bit more. Some engineers bail and move over, but most are happy where they are/don't want the life change/etc. And on it goes. It's like the search for a mate: the older you get, the more likely it is you've found a situation you want to keep. In the engineering case, "skilled engineers" are for the most part older, may have other responsibilities (mortgage, kids, spouse), have had the opportunity to "sow their wild oats" by trying a few different companies/startups/whatever, and have found a situation they want to keep.
- cmdrfred 12y ago
  Some people start fighting back, half of restaurant workers are over 30 but according to general public they are all pimple faced 17 year olds.
Domenic_S 12y ago
What a load of garbage. Show me even one example of someone who's been fired for asking for a raise (who wasn't going to be fired anyway). There's no logic at all in firing someone who asks for something, unless there are other factors at play. It's an untruthful trope that's damaging, because some people actually believe it.
- debt 12y ago
  Whoa. I'm not saying people are actually doing it(not asking for raises for fear they'll be fired), I'm just describing, hypothetically, what a person's logic might be in that situation.
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    You said, quote: > young(cheap) workers are in large supply so people may actually be fired for asking for a raise which is what I'm specifically asking about. Is there any case where this causal relationship has been demonstrated? > I'm just describing, hypothetically, what a person's logic might be Then we need to preach loud and long how totally mistaken that logic is. "Well Johnson, you're a model employee and get great reviews every year, but you asked for a raise so I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go." - never happens.

by debt 12y ago

eli_gottlieb 12y ago

>The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. The limit is shown in the recent fast food strikes: when the existing jobs are so damn bad that people can't get by from working, people start fighting back again.

Domenic_S 12y ago
> existing jobs "There are three million good jobs that no one seems to want." http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ http://profoundlydisconnected.com/
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  One thing I find extremely conspicuous about that brand and web-page is that no information seems to appear on the site stating the mean or median wages, working hours, and/or benefits packages available in the skilled-trade jobs Rowe and Profoundly Disconnected are marketing. If employers can't be bothered to pay well, why work for them? https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    My anecdata from hiring a lot of trades (sticker shock!), and having lots of friends and family in trades, is that skilled trades pay extremely well, but you have to go up the ladder. apprentice (crap pay) --> journeyman (good pay) --> master (great pay) --> own your own shop (fantastic pay). The only people I personally know with paid-off houses in California are tradespeople and startup lottery winners.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  Sounds just exactly like the "can't find enough skilled engineers" whining in the tech sector. The other half of that thought, "at the price I'm willing to pay" is almost never mentioned. This country has a deeply embedded, cultural and in my opinion entirely unhealthy bent toward deference to the wealthy and connected that borders on obsquious.
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    I doubt it. Like I said in another comment, the only people I personally know with paid-off houses in California are tradespeople and startup lottery winners. > The other half of that thought, "at the price I'm willing to pay" is almost never mentioned. Think on that for a second. Let's say CompanyX is willing to pay huge gobs of money for engineers. Now CompanyX employs all the good engineers and everyone else whines that they can't find any. So CompanyY comes along and offers a bit more. Some engineers bail and move over, but most are happy where they are/don't want the life change/etc. And on it goes. It's like the search for a mate: the older you get, the more likely it is you've found a situation you want to keep. In the engineering case, "skilled engineers" are for the most part older, may have other responsibilities (mortgage, kids, spouse), have had the opportunity to "sow their wild oats" by trying a few different companies/startups/whatever, and have found a situation they want to keep.
cmdrfred 12y ago
Some people start fighting back, half of restaurant workers are over 30 but according to general public they are all pimple faced 17 year olds.

Domenic_S 12y ago

What a load of garbage. Show me even one example of someone who's been fired for asking for a raise (who wasn't going to be fired anyway). There's no logic at all in firing someone who asks for something, unless there are other factors at play. It's an untruthful trope that's damaging, because some people actually believe it.

debt 12y ago
Whoa. I'm not saying people are actually doing it(not asking for raises for fear they'll be fired), I'm just describing, hypothetically, what a person's logic might be in that situation.
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  You said, quote: > young(cheap) workers are in large supply so people may actually be fired for asking for a raise which is what I'm specifically asking about. Is there any case where this causal relationship has been demonstrated? > I'm just describing, hypothetically, what a person's logic might be Then we need to preach loud and long how totally mistaken that logic is. "Well Johnson, you're a model employee and get great reviews every year, but you asked for a raise so I'm afraid we're going to have to let you go." - never happens.