4 ms·

I think the fall of the middle class has a lot to do with a lot of different factors, but probably the biggest is the lack of negotiation that happens in our co

I think the fall of the middle class has a lot to do with a lot of different factors, but probably the biggest is the lack of negotiation that happens in our country by the average person. We are a country of price takers, not price setters. Most people are taking whatever price they are offered with no push back. No raises this year? Well maybe next year. Maybe a tiny bonus. Etc. Unions had their own set of problems and at some point might be unsustainable, but when people stop negotiating deals, they get taken advantage of. I've changed jobs more than some people I know because it would get me a better deal, and it has. But before that, I experienced myself and watched my parents stick to the same job without getting appropriate raises and bonuses for the work they did. In our current economy the best way to get a raise seems to be to switch companies because companies don't like giving raises and people don't like asking for them. Eventually what used to be a early raise negotiation will be a yearly job negotiation. It's starting to happen with younger workers and the more that is normal, the less efficient all these businesses will become. All because people stopped negotiating.

Florin_Andrei 12y ago
You negotiate with people you trust. When there's no trust, negotiations break down. The all-pervading "glue" of society is crumbling down.
- bmmayer1 12y ago
  This might have something to do with the fact that we've outsourced much of our trust to the federal government. And no one trusts the federal government.
  - Florin_Andrei 12y ago
    Actually, your answer is not an explanation, but one of the numerous symptoms of this condition.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  The only trust you need to negotiate is the trust that the other party will follow through on what they promised and we have the police to enforce that. Real trust is great, but you can negotiate without it.
debt 12y ago
Maybe people are afraid. The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. People are less inclined to push back because they don't want to potentially jeopardize their job. I agree that ideally people should always be pushing back, but if it's potentially between a raise or you're fired(at least in the minds of people requesting the raise), then people will be more cautious. Also, young(cheap) workers are in large supply so people may actually be fired for asking for a raise; they can just fire the guy and hire a new younger worker(probably working for less too). Many of these tech companies out here in the Bay probably pull hundreds of millions of dollars in "free" labor using an army of temporary interns(because it's cheap).
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  >The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. The limit is shown in the recent fast food strikes: when the existing jobs are so damn bad that people can't get by from working, people start fighting back again.
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    > existing jobs "There are three million good jobs that no one seems to want." http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ http://profoundlydisconnected.com/
    - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
      One thing I find extremely conspicuous about that brand and web-page is that no information seems to appear on the site stating the mean or median wages, working hours, and/or benefits packages available in the skilled-trade jobs Rowe and Profoundly Disconnected are marketing. If employers can't be bothered to pay well, why work for them? https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/
      - Domenic_S 12y ago
        My anecdata from hiring a lot of trades (sticker shock!), and having lots of friends and family in trades, is that skilled trades pay extremely well, but you have to go up the ladder. apprentice (crap pay) --> journeyman (good pay) --> master (great pay) --> own your own shop (fantastic pay). The only people I personally know with paid-off houses in California are tradespeople and startup lottery winners.
wpietri 12y ago
It's not like people arbitrarily said, "Fuck it, no more negotiating." There are reasons. An obvious one is that the Great Recession has shifted power toward companies and away from workers. You won't negotiate if it does no good.
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  If only there was a way for employees to unite, to increase their bargaining power with employers... ;)
snarfy 12y ago
The only way to get the market value for what you are worth is to put yourself on the market.

Florin_Andrei 12y ago

You negotiate with people you trust. When there's no trust, negotiations break down. The all-pervading "glue" of society is crumbling down.

bmmayer1 12y ago
This might have something to do with the fact that we've outsourced much of our trust to the federal government. And no one trusts the federal government.
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  Actually, your answer is not an explanation, but one of the numerous symptoms of this condition.
seanflyon 12y ago
The only trust you need to negotiate is the trust that the other party will follow through on what they promised and we have the police to enforce that. Real trust is great, but you can negotiate without it.

debt 12y ago

Maybe people are afraid. The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. People are less inclined to push back because they don't want to potentially jeopardize their job. I agree that ideally people should always be pushing back, but if it's potentially between a raise or you're fired(at least in the minds of people requesting the raise), then people will be more cautious. Also, young(cheap) workers are in large supply so people may actually be fired for asking for a raise; they can just fire the guy and hire a new younger worker(probably working for less too). Many of these tech companies out here in the Bay probably pull hundreds of millions of dollars in "free" labor using an army of temporary interns(because it's cheap).

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>The new mantra is "you're lucky to even have job" with this economy. The limit is shown in the recent fast food strikes: when the existing jobs are so damn bad that people can't get by from working, people start fighting back again.
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  > existing jobs "There are three million good jobs that no one seems to want." http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ http://profoundlydisconnected.com/
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    One thing I find extremely conspicuous about that brand and web-page is that no information seems to appear on the site stating the mean or median wages, working hours, and/or benefits packages available in the skilled-trade jobs Rowe and Profoundly Disconnected are marketing. If employers can't be bothered to pay well, why work for them? https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/mike-rowes-dirty-job/
    - Domenic_S 12y ago
      My anecdata from hiring a lot of trades (sticker shock!), and having lots of friends and family in trades, is that skilled trades pay extremely well, but you have to go up the ladder. apprentice (crap pay) --> journeyman (good pay) --> master (great pay) --> own your own shop (fantastic pay). The only people I personally know with paid-off houses in California are tradespeople and startup lottery winners.

wpietri 12y ago

It's not like people arbitrarily said, "Fuck it, no more negotiating." There are reasons. An obvious one is that the Great Recession has shifted power toward companies and away from workers. You won't negotiate if it does no good.

Florin_Andrei 12y ago
If only there was a way for employees to unite, to increase their bargaining power with employers... ;)

snarfy 12y ago

The only way to get the market value for what you are worth is to put yourself on the market.