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I think is it very naive to believe that the States(any State) side with your interest. In fact, the biggest crimes against humanity had been come from the sta

I think is it very naive to believe that the States(any State) side with your interest. In fact, the biggest crimes against humanity had been come from the state: Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot. They are responsible for tens of millions of dead people, torture, kidnappings or rape and they were the heads of the State. Hitler or Mussolini came from democracies. If Apple could access ANY of their devices, they have to tell the NSA how they do it, thanks to "Patriot Act". This means the gobertment could AUTOMATICALLY access any device, they don't need to ask anybody, only as a pantomime for justifying what they already know. This is too dangerous, democracy means that power could change if it does not serve the public interest, but people in power want to remain in power by any means.

vacri 12y ago
The biggest benefactors to humanity also come from the state: outlawing slavery, implementing universal healthcare, providing law and order, underwriting transportation networks. Knee-jerk fearmongering about the government doesn't help anyone.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  I am from Sweden. We do trust the state and each others. The society comes really high on the sociological metric of "trust". That said, it is just ... naive... to argue that "Some instances of X have done good, so let's trust (all?) X". Especially since these X evolve surprisingly over time, sometimes quickly. (The whole of Europe demilitarised totally after the cold war and are now surprised we have something like a Hitler as a neighbour.) Edit: Hmm... that comment was about internal US politics? OK... Living in a country with trusting idiots which believe what they are told to believe, I do know that politics for internal consumption can seem weird from the outside! Both the US extreme left/right seems crazy (say, Chomsky and Fox).
- chernevik 12y ago
  Wariness of the potential abuse of power is no more paranoid than following proper technique handling a sharp kitchen knife.
  - snowwrestler 12y ago
    Yes but extending your analogy, the knife is sharp. I totally agree that the government needs careful watching, but I disagree that we should totally fear all government. A government without power would be like using a butter knife...you probably won't cut yourself, but you'll also have a lot of trouble cooking.
    - McDoku 12y ago
      That explanation deserves a slow clap. An upvote is simply not enough.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - vacri 12y ago
    The parent is not talking about being wary, it's fearmongering about what governments do. I think it's naive to think that the government is an evil agent at the same time it provides old-age pensions so people can continue to live when they can no longer work. That rather sounds like action directly in people's interests to me. Governments are more complex these simplistic, blanket statements and positions.
    - chernevik 12y ago
      Actually, they aren't. Go read the Federalist Papers.
netcan 12y ago
An important nuance here is that if Mussolini was a murderer, there are many thiefs, racketeers and white collar criminals in the mix as well. We know and accept those who were such criminals that the idea of international crimes against humanity were formalized around their crimes. On that scale, there are plenty of misdemeanors that go unprosecuted (and unacknowledged),
jcfrei 12y ago
this is a bit shortsighted. civil liberties have to be defended every day against governments, private corporations, special interest groups, religious entities, etc. it's a continuous struggle and the legal form of such an organization is of second order in importance.
snowwrestler 12y ago
The biggest crimes have come from states because states are the biggest organizations of people. It's almost a tautology. I think it's just as naive to believe that the State always sides against your interest. Hitler and Stalin were heads of state, but so were FDR and Churchill.

vacri 12y ago

The biggest benefactors to humanity also come from the state: outlawing slavery, implementing universal healthcare, providing law and order, underwriting transportation networks. Knee-jerk fearmongering about the government doesn't help anyone.

BugBrother 12y ago
I am from Sweden. We do trust the state and each others. The society comes really high on the sociological metric of "trust". That said, it is just ... naive... to argue that "Some instances of X have done good, so let's trust (all?) X". Especially since these X evolve surprisingly over time, sometimes quickly. (The whole of Europe demilitarised totally after the cold war and are now surprised we have something like a Hitler as a neighbour.) Edit: Hmm... that comment was about internal US politics? OK... Living in a country with trusting idiots which believe what they are told to believe, I do know that politics for internal consumption can seem weird from the outside! Both the US extreme left/right seems crazy (say, Chomsky and Fox).
chernevik 12y ago
Wariness of the potential abuse of power is no more paranoid than following proper technique handling a sharp kitchen knife.
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  Yes but extending your analogy, the knife is sharp. I totally agree that the government needs careful watching, but I disagree that we should totally fear all government. A government without power would be like using a butter knife...you probably won't cut yourself, but you'll also have a lot of trouble cooking.
  - McDoku 12y ago
    That explanation deserves a slow clap. An upvote is simply not enough.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- vacri 12y ago
  The parent is not talking about being wary, it's fearmongering about what governments do. I think it's naive to think that the government is an evil agent at the same time it provides old-age pensions so people can continue to live when they can no longer work. That rather sounds like action directly in people's interests to me. Governments are more complex these simplistic, blanket statements and positions.
  - chernevik 12y ago
    Actually, they aren't. Go read the Federalist Papers.

netcan 12y ago

An important nuance here is that if Mussolini was a murderer, there are many thiefs, racketeers and white collar criminals in the mix as well. We know and accept those who were such criminals that the idea of international crimes against humanity were formalized around their crimes. On that scale, there are plenty of misdemeanors that go unprosecuted (and unacknowledged),

jcfrei 12y ago

this is a bit shortsighted. civil liberties have to be defended every day against governments, private corporations, special interest groups, religious entities, etc. it's a continuous struggle and the legal form of such an organization is of second order in importance.

snowwrestler 12y ago

The biggest crimes have come from states because states are the biggest organizations of people. It's almost a tautology. I think it's just as naive to believe that the State always sides against your interest. Hitler and Stalin were heads of state, but so were FDR and Churchill.