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If you haven't tried MDMA, I strongly recommend it.[1] I've used it twice in the past six years, and it has completely changed how I interact with others. Rolli

by chroma 12y ago

If you haven't tried MDMA, I strongly recommend it.[1] I've used it twice in the past six years, and it has completely changed how I interact with others. Rolling on MDMA drastically curbed my social phobias. All of my negative social emotions: my neuroticism, my self-consciousness, even bitter emotions such as envy; all of them disappeared on MDMA. Afterwards, I felt as if I'd been cured of a mental illness. While I'm certainly not as outgoing and selfless as I would be on MDMA, I've moved my typical behavior closer toward that. It has made me a healthier, happier human being. More importantly, my interactions help others much more than they used to. It is a tragedy that some parts of the US government try so hard to restrict this drug. I fully agree that it is a powerful, dangerous drug. Still, for most purposes, the benefits almost certainly outweigh the harms. I think future generations will look back on this as a moral failing of our time. 1. In moderation, of course, and mega-caveats for anyone who has a family history of schizophrenia. MDMA is not good for your brain. However, I think for many people it may be necessary to use the drug to open a figurative door. I wish better drugs existed, but research in the field has been stifled.

nether 12y ago
I've taken MDMA twice. Both were awesome experiences, but I reverted 100% to my socially anxious state within 48 hours of the roll. I was never able to carry the lessons and mental state from my MDMA trips into sober, waking life. Also, the second trip's good vibes were greatly diminished from the first.
- pantalaimon 12y ago
  It really helps to roll with friends whom you really like, but just can't express that usually. On MDMA you can talk about all things, even those that normally scare you, those where you are afraid - but your friends will understand. Once you've been to that place you can still return to it when sober, because you know the compassion was real. This can really crush your insecurities.
Camillo 12y ago
Is there any evidence of MDMA making users better people, other than self reports? For each individual who says psychedelics have made them a better person, there are hundreds who make the same claim about religion. And I think we can all agree that the risk of biological side effects is much lower with religion. If I were going to follow your advice and try MDMA, shouldn't I follow my father's advice and try religion first?
- leot 12y ago
  You only have to try MDMA once. Its acute effects will last around six hours. I've met many people who have attested to the profound effect it's had on their lives. Religion is a bit more of a commitment. And, for it to have the desired effects, often requires you to change what you believe about the world.
- curtis3389 12y ago
  > Is there any evidence of MDMA making users better people, other than self reports? Generally, no. You can't become better by taking a drug, but they're not talking about bettering themselves. They're talking about healing. If your intention is to better yourself with the aid of psychedelic drugs[1], you'll only get out what you put in, and psychedelics will mostly only inspire you to put forth the effort. edit: You still have to work at improving yourself through other means. > For each individual who says psychedelics have made them a better person, there are hundreds who make the same claim about religion. Well, not that many people are willing to try psychedelics. > And I think we can all agree that the risk of biological side effects is much lower with religion. Every year more people are killed in the name of religion than by psychedelics. Psychedelics kill noone. Their LD50 is usually too high. > If I were going to follow your advice and try MDMA, shouldn't I follow my father's advice and try religion first? Sure, but please try more than one religion, and check out philosophy too. You can choose whether or not to try MDMA in the same way that you can choose whether or not to go sky diving. [1] This is not an inherently misguided idea, but in uncontrolled environments, psychedelics can be quite dangerous.
  - electronvolt 12y ago
curtis3389 12y ago
> I wish better drugs existed, but research in the field has been stifled. There has been some promising research with psilocybin: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06....
pgsandstrom 12y ago
But can you really say how high the probability of bad or good effects from MDMA is? Perhaps most people do not get long lasting positive effects, and we only hear about your case due to survivor bias.
- pantalaimon 12y ago
  Unless you are using it regularly, there aren't any long lasting negative effects either.
vanderZwan 12y ago
I can really relate to this, because I had a similar experience. However, for me the drug was alcohol. I could take your post, replace "MDMA" with "alcohol" and it would almost exactly describe my experience. People tend to forget that alcohol is a mind-altering drug like any other, but it totally is of course. I was a teetotaler until my mid-tweens, and still I only drink in moderation. I've only gotten shitfaced once, when a pretty girl was hitting on me and kept buying us shots (an unlikely scenario, I know - hence the only once). However, that one time was enough to cure a lot of social anxieties for me. Like your MDMA experiences for you, that one-time experience of drunk buffoonery opened the door to self-healing. In my case the fact that I managed to be a drunk idiot without being a drunk asshole made me worry less about losing control in general. That also highlights that while it worked for me, it's unlikely to work for everyone (and I'm sure you all have anecdotal experiencethat backs this up...). So my conclusions are the same: the usefulness of mind-altering drugs is highly context-sensitive and misunderstood.
- chroma 12y ago
  I'm glad alcohol helped you, but have you ever tried psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybin, or MDMA? The effects are fundamentally different. Psychedelics have a much higher chance of triggering profound and transformative experiences.
  - laichzeit0 12y ago
    Sam Harris, who I hope most people on HN can accept as someone with a slightly above average intelligence, seems to agree with you. He wrote a very interesting article on his experience with LSD: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-...
  - vanderZwan 12y ago
    I am aware that different drugs have wildly different effects. I was just trying to point out that even alcohol - something considered "mundane" by most - should technically be considered a transformative, mind-altering drug. Ate a tiny piece of space cake once and ended up jumping out of a window. Years I did MDMA once and did not notice much effects (and it wasn't a dud - I shared it with a friend and they definitely noticed its effects). Another anecdote suggesting that the effects of these drugs on people greatly depend on your state of mind when you take them. It's precisely there where we have little hard data on how the drugs work, I think.
Fuxy 12y ago
Glad it helped you however i have to let you know negative social emotions, self-consciousness and even bitter emotions such as envy can be controlled or even removed without drugs however it take a lot of introspection and paradigm shifts. I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done and drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails. I am afraid people will just choose the easy route and take the drugs instead of doing the inner core work to fix these issues.
- wpietri 12y ago
  > I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done and drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails. I haven't tried MDMA, or any of they psychedelics. But trustworthy friends report just the opposite. It was trying those drugs that made them understand that different ways of being were possible. It was only then that they started doing the work necessary to make that their normal state. That makes a lot of sense to me. For years I heard a lot of talk about how exercise was good for mood and cognition. But as somebody who hated sports, I filed it under "blah blah". It wasn't until I had a couple of intense exercise experiences that I experienced the difference. Now I'm training for my second triathlon (after doing more than a dozen running races).
  - pantalaimon 12y ago
    > For years I heard a lot of talk about how exercise was good for mood and cognition. But as somebody who hated sports, I filed it under "blah blah". I know exactly what you mean. I don't know whether it's a result of taking LSD or just getting older, but for a lot of things where my initial reaction would be indifference or opposition, I've come to think: Wait, those people actually have a point! There is also that difference between (rationally) understanding something and understanding something, attaching meaning and value to it.
- balfirevic 12y ago
  > drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails Why? > I am afraid people will just choose the easy route and take the drugs instead of doing the inner core work to fix these issues. What is the problem with that if it helps them all the same?
teekert 12y ago
There is no reason to assume that there are no substances that can either temporarily alter you and inspire you to pursue a certain state of mind more often (without the drug) or that can alter you for a longer time. That said, the birth of my son altered me for a long time (made more emotional, better able to enjoy emotion). Finishing the reconstruction of my house with my own hands altered me (showed me I can do major things when I just start doing them). Getting my PhD showed me that even though I reached the maximum level of education I can still have insecurities about my intelligence and they are thus irrational. Reading Atlas Shrugged changed me from someone who automatically though from a group perspective to someone who kept his own needs at a higher priority by showing me the moral rational for this type of thinking. I never tried LSD or the like but aren't they just shortcuts to states of mind I can attain by learning myself to be more grateful for what I have? To be more social and nice? Can I attain the long term effects of psychedelic drugs by reading? By learning how to meditate? That is what I always believed. Perhaps at some point I will experiment, now I feel I can't take any risks, I need my brain the way it is to provide for my family.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- yebyen 12y ago
  Some religious people believe that some people are created to go to hell. Some people have strong minds and can open doors inside them on their own, without chemical assistance. Some people are bipolar and need hospitalization until one day their doctor tries them on lithium, and suddenly they can function again as normal, productive members of society. I have never read PIhKaL or TIhKaL but I am aware of the 1-10 rating scale, so forgive me if I over-simplify but I'll explain it briefly in case you've never heard of this. Chemicals are rated on a scale of -10 to +10 based on the potency and reliability of the experience they produce. +10 is not said to be a linear extension of +9, instead +10 is said to be reserved for drugs that ingesting the substance can be shown to produce a "religious experience" where your perception is changed, you see God, and everything is right for you. (Not necessarily reliably, or every time, but enough for viziers such as Shulgin to have felt a need to document it in this way.) Looking it up now I see the "Shulgin Scale" really only goes up to +4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale If you read the "canonical" interpretation of +4, it's clear that what you're describing as having changed you in these ways is similar, if not the same; probably you'd agree with this regardless of your position on God or religion. While I appreciate your belief, if I had seen positive effects on people using the drug then what you're saying wouldn't change my mind about the effectiveness or about a potential good that could come out of the drug. Maybe it's a shortcut, or maybe for some person even with similar experience to yours it's still the only way for them to have that experience and to open those doors. (NB: I don't have any children, and I'm neither sure that I could build a decent house with my bare hands.)
giggitytex 12y ago
I am totally with you. I must admit that at first I was taking ecstasy (MDMA) in a club setting. Yes, it was a ball. It opened me to the idea of talking to the opposite sex and not expecting them to roll their eyes and walk away. After a while I began taking it at home and listening to music that inspired me. I began to reflect on my childhood when I had 2 verbally abusive parents. I had shut those thoughts out, and at 25 began dealing with them and seeing the effect their abuse had on me. MDMA allowed me to look at those relationships in a completely loving light and realize them for what they were; 2 people who could not express themselves appropriately. It changed my love for them in a very positive way, even after "the roll" had stopped. I forgave them for the many years of anguish I experienced in middle school, high school and college. I had literally ignored them since college out of anger for a lost childhood. Being able to love them again made me realize that I can love others too. Around that time is when I began to trust people and it is when I met my future spouse. It's a tough thing to admit, but MDMA had better reparation on my emotional and psychological state than many years of church and reading books. I love God, I know he's guiding us, and I think sometimes healing power starts on the inside of your mind. If you're a religious person, the first two commandments are "Love God", and "Love your neighbor". MDMA helped me on both of those. I just read a statistic the other day that veteran suicide rates are increasing. As a non-combat veteran, I wish I could take the many troubled and PTSD afflicted and have them try MDMA to work through their issues in a controlled therapy session.
curun1r 12y ago
Once or twice, perhaps. But I'd strongly caution against using MDMA regularly. Lost in all the DEA-fueled hysteria that tried to show the potential lethality of the drugs (which was laughable, considering basic observation of recreational usage showed it was almost never fatal) was the more subtle consequences of the drug. For instance, of the group that I used to "roll" with, all but one of us have suffered from a diagnosed depression. It's a small sample size, but 9 out of 10 people is somewhat alarming and it's not hard to find plenty of examples of people online claiming to suffer from similar symptoms after prolonged MDMA usage. So I'd temper your recommendation. It's still a substance that you need to be very careful with. For one, there are so many other substances that are much more dangerous that are easier to produce and sold as MDMA. If you're going to use the drug, make sure you're using the actual drug. Second, be mindful that the actual dangers are far more subtle than the scaremongering would have you believe but can be almost as devastating.
- mattlutze 12y ago
  Something to consider is that people seek out a particular experience often to offset an existing experience or condition. Ecstasy use could have been a source of self-medication for the effects of depression in the folks you hung out with, rather than a cause of that depression. Like many self-medicators, they and you may not have recognized the symptoms of depression consciously before using the drug, which could lead to a misconception of cause/effect timing. But, just a thought, obviously not knowing you or them.

by chroma 12y ago

nether 12y ago

I've taken MDMA twice. Both were awesome experiences, but I reverted 100% to my socially anxious state within 48 hours of the roll. I was never able to carry the lessons and mental state from my MDMA trips into sober, waking life. Also, the second trip's good vibes were greatly diminished from the first.

pantalaimon 12y ago
It really helps to roll with friends whom you really like, but just can't express that usually. On MDMA you can talk about all things, even those that normally scare you, those where you are afraid - but your friends will understand. Once you've been to that place you can still return to it when sober, because you know the compassion was real. This can really crush your insecurities.

Camillo 12y ago

Is there any evidence of MDMA making users better people, other than self reports? For each individual who says psychedelics have made them a better person, there are hundreds who make the same claim about religion. And I think we can all agree that the risk of biological side effects is much lower with religion. If I were going to follow your advice and try MDMA, shouldn't I follow my father's advice and try religion first?

leot 12y ago
You only have to try MDMA once. Its acute effects will last around six hours. I've met many people who have attested to the profound effect it's had on their lives. Religion is a bit more of a commitment. And, for it to have the desired effects, often requires you to change what you believe about the world.
curtis3389 12y ago
> Is there any evidence of MDMA making users better people, other than self reports? Generally, no. You can't become better by taking a drug, but they're not talking about bettering themselves. They're talking about healing. If your intention is to better yourself with the aid of psychedelic drugs[1], you'll only get out what you put in, and psychedelics will mostly only inspire you to put forth the effort. edit: You still have to work at improving yourself through other means. > For each individual who says psychedelics have made them a better person, there are hundreds who make the same claim about religion. Well, not that many people are willing to try psychedelics. > And I think we can all agree that the risk of biological side effects is much lower with religion. Every year more people are killed in the name of religion than by psychedelics. Psychedelics kill noone. Their LD50 is usually too high. > If I were going to follow your advice and try MDMA, shouldn't I follow my father's advice and try religion first? Sure, but please try more than one religion, and check out philosophy too. You can choose whether or not to try MDMA in the same way that you can choose whether or not to go sky diving. [1] This is not an inherently misguided idea, but in uncontrolled environments, psychedelics can be quite dangerous.
- electronvolt 12y ago

curtis3389 12y ago

> I wish better drugs existed, but research in the field has been stifled. There has been some promising research with psilocybin: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06....

pgsandstrom 12y ago

But can you really say how high the probability of bad or good effects from MDMA is? Perhaps most people do not get long lasting positive effects, and we only hear about your case due to survivor bias.

pantalaimon 12y ago
Unless you are using it regularly, there aren't any long lasting negative effects either.

vanderZwan 12y ago

I can really relate to this, because I had a similar experience. However, for me the drug was alcohol. I could take your post, replace "MDMA" with "alcohol" and it would almost exactly describe my experience. People tend to forget that alcohol is a mind-altering drug like any other, but it totally is of course. I was a teetotaler until my mid-tweens, and still I only drink in moderation. I've only gotten shitfaced once, when a pretty girl was hitting on me and kept buying us shots (an unlikely scenario, I know - hence the only once). However, that one time was enough to cure a lot of social anxieties for me. Like your MDMA experiences for you, that one-time experience of drunk buffoonery opened the door to self-healing. In my case the fact that I managed to be a drunk idiot without being a drunk asshole made me worry less about losing control in general. That also highlights that while it worked for me, it's unlikely to work for everyone (and I'm sure you all have anecdotal experiencethat backs this up...). So my conclusions are the same: the usefulness of mind-altering drugs is highly context-sensitive and misunderstood.

chroma 12y ago
I'm glad alcohol helped you, but have you ever tried psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybin, or MDMA? The effects are fundamentally different. Psychedelics have a much higher chance of triggering profound and transformative experiences.
- laichzeit0 12y ago
  Sam Harris, who I hope most people on HN can accept as someone with a slightly above average intelligence, seems to agree with you. He wrote a very interesting article on his experience with LSD: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-...
- vanderZwan 12y ago
  I am aware that different drugs have wildly different effects. I was just trying to point out that even alcohol - something considered "mundane" by most - should technically be considered a transformative, mind-altering drug. Ate a tiny piece of space cake once and ended up jumping out of a window. Years I did MDMA once and did not notice much effects (and it wasn't a dud - I shared it with a friend and they definitely noticed its effects). Another anecdote suggesting that the effects of these drugs on people greatly depend on your state of mind when you take them. It's precisely there where we have little hard data on how the drugs work, I think.

Fuxy 12y ago

Glad it helped you however i have to let you know negative social emotions, self-consciousness and even bitter emotions such as envy can be controlled or even removed without drugs however it take a lot of introspection and paradigm shifts. I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done and drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails. I am afraid people will just choose the easy route and take the drugs instead of doing the inner core work to fix these issues.

wpietri 12y ago
> I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done and drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails. I haven't tried MDMA, or any of they psychedelics. But trustworthy friends report just the opposite. It was trying those drugs that made them understand that different ways of being were possible. It was only then that they started doing the work necessary to make that their normal state. That makes a lot of sense to me. For years I heard a lot of talk about how exercise was good for mood and cognition. But as somebody who hated sports, I filed it under "blah blah". It wasn't until I had a couple of intense exercise experiences that I experienced the difference. Now I'm training for my second triathlon (after doing more than a dozen running races).
- pantalaimon 12y ago
  > For years I heard a lot of talk about how exercise was good for mood and cognition. But as somebody who hated sports, I filed it under "blah blah". I know exactly what you mean. I don't know whether it's a result of taking LSD or just getting older, but for a lot of things where my initial reaction would be indifference or opposition, I've come to think: Wait, those people actually have a point! There is also that difference between (rationally) understanding something and understanding something, attaching meaning and value to it.
balfirevic 12y ago
> drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails Why? > I am afraid people will just choose the easy route and take the drugs instead of doing the inner core work to fix these issues. What is the problem with that if it helps them all the same?

teekert 12y ago

There is no reason to assume that there are no substances that can either temporarily alter you and inspire you to pursue a certain state of mind more often (without the drug) or that can alter you for a longer time. That said, the birth of my son altered me for a long time (made more emotional, better able to enjoy emotion). Finishing the reconstruction of my house with my own hands altered me (showed me I can do major things when I just start doing them). Getting my PhD showed me that even though I reached the maximum level of education I can still have insecurities about my intelligence and they are thus irrational. Reading Atlas Shrugged changed me from someone who automatically though from a group perspective to someone who kept his own needs at a higher priority by showing me the moral rational for this type of thinking. I never tried LSD or the like but aren't they just shortcuts to states of mind I can attain by learning myself to be more grateful for what I have? To be more social and nice? Can I attain the long term effects of psychedelic drugs by reading? By learning how to meditate? That is what I always believed. Perhaps at some point I will experiment, now I feel I can't take any risks, I need my brain the way it is to provide for my family.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
yebyen 12y ago
Some religious people believe that some people are created to go to hell. Some people have strong minds and can open doors inside them on their own, without chemical assistance. Some people are bipolar and need hospitalization until one day their doctor tries them on lithium, and suddenly they can function again as normal, productive members of society. I have never read PIhKaL or TIhKaL but I am aware of the 1-10 rating scale, so forgive me if I over-simplify but I'll explain it briefly in case you've never heard of this. Chemicals are rated on a scale of -10 to +10 based on the potency and reliability of the experience they produce. +10 is not said to be a linear extension of +9, instead +10 is said to be reserved for drugs that ingesting the substance can be shown to produce a "religious experience" where your perception is changed, you see God, and everything is right for you. (Not necessarily reliably, or every time, but enough for viziers such as Shulgin to have felt a need to document it in this way.) Looking it up now I see the "Shulgin Scale" really only goes up to +4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale If you read the "canonical" interpretation of +4, it's clear that what you're describing as having changed you in these ways is similar, if not the same; probably you'd agree with this regardless of your position on God or religion. While I appreciate your belief, if I had seen positive effects on people using the drug then what you're saying wouldn't change my mind about the effectiveness or about a potential good that could come out of the drug. Maybe it's a shortcut, or maybe for some person even with similar experience to yours it's still the only way for them to have that experience and to open those doors. (NB: I don't have any children, and I'm neither sure that I could build a decent house with my bare hands.)

giggitytex 12y ago

I am totally with you. I must admit that at first I was taking ecstasy (MDMA) in a club setting. Yes, it was a ball. It opened me to the idea of talking to the opposite sex and not expecting them to roll their eyes and walk away. After a while I began taking it at home and listening to music that inspired me. I began to reflect on my childhood when I had 2 verbally abusive parents. I had shut those thoughts out, and at 25 began dealing with them and seeing the effect their abuse had on me. MDMA allowed me to look at those relationships in a completely loving light and realize them for what they were; 2 people who could not express themselves appropriately. It changed my love for them in a very positive way, even after "the roll" had stopped. I forgave them for the many years of anguish I experienced in middle school, high school and college. I had literally ignored them since college out of anger for a lost childhood. Being able to love them again made me realize that I can love others too. Around that time is when I began to trust people and it is when I met my future spouse. It's a tough thing to admit, but MDMA had better reparation on my emotional and psychological state than many years of church and reading books. I love God, I know he's guiding us, and I think sometimes healing power starts on the inside of your mind. If you're a religious person, the first two commandments are "Love God", and "Love your neighbor". MDMA helped me on both of those. I just read a statistic the other day that veteran suicide rates are increasing. As a non-combat veteran, I wish I could take the many troubled and PTSD afflicted and have them try MDMA to work through their issues in a controlled therapy session.

curun1r 12y ago

Once or twice, perhaps. But I'd strongly caution against using MDMA regularly. Lost in all the DEA-fueled hysteria that tried to show the potential lethality of the drugs (which was laughable, considering basic observation of recreational usage showed it was almost never fatal) was the more subtle consequences of the drug. For instance, of the group that I used to "roll" with, all but one of us have suffered from a diagnosed depression. It's a small sample size, but 9 out of 10 people is somewhat alarming and it's not hard to find plenty of examples of people online claiming to suffer from similar symptoms after prolonged MDMA usage. So I'd temper your recommendation. It's still a substance that you need to be very careful with. For one, there are so many other substances that are much more dangerous that are easier to produce and sold as MDMA. If you're going to use the drug, make sure you're using the actual drug. Second, be mindful that the actual dangers are far more subtle than the scaremongering would have you believe but can be almost as devastating.

mattlutze 12y ago
Something to consider is that people seek out a particular experience often to offset an existing experience or condition. Ecstasy use could have been a source of self-medication for the effects of depression in the folks you hung out with, rather than a cause of that depression. Like many self-medicators, they and you may not have recognized the symptoms of depression consciously before using the drug, which could lead to a misconception of cause/effect timing. But, just a thought, obviously not knowing you or them.